Elden Ring has 23 Erdtree Avatars and Tree spirit fight including variants

[BBirdy]

I'm considering on doing a 3rd playtrough and took a look at the Elden Ring Map and enabled just bosses. There are around 155 bosses and I feel like about 20 of them are actually good fights, while the rest are just general trash copypasted everywhere around the map.

I feel like the exploration carries your first 2 play troughs and after that there is really no reason to play the game anymore. If you skip all the trash, you just end up horsing around for about 3 hours and fight total of 20 bosses.

I did go back to replay Dark Souls 3 and that game holds together even after 20th playtrough. I'd go as far as to say that Ds3 is a lot better than Elden Ring and I can recommend that to everyone who enjoyed Elden Ring.

Anyone else left feeling quite disappointed at the pve and pvp stuff?
I feel like the game could have used another year in the oven, so they had time to develop more bosses.

[SHOCKNUTZ]

Originally posted by 𝕱𝖎𝖓𝖊𝖔𝖚𝖘🔥:

Originally posted by SHOCKNUTZ:

i'm at 875 hours played and haven't even beaten the game yet. got it at launch, played a few months and then took a break and eventually came back.

i didn't do the whole self inflected bordem thing from "content creator" hype trains like a lot of people seemed to do. i recall a number of people rushing the main bosses and finishing the game saying it was short and disappointing and so on. people got burnt out because of their own choices. there is plenty to do in the game and the longevity of the game is pretty good if you don't tunnel.

but i'm a normal healthy person who sees it just as a game and i have a life outside of gaming. i'm not a cripple living on ss or government handouts in my 20's-30's living with my parents because i'm legally incapacitated with some type of syndrome or disorder.

ER was not meant to be a second life.

In this post you pigeonhole everyone playing videogames a lot with a negative stereotype.
There are people with high purchasing power who enjoyed an early retirement at 39 years of age, which ended up being a long sabbatical period. With a good job, careers, physically and mentally healthy and even practicing sports and traveling regularly.

I mean we are all gamers lets not throw negative stereotypes at each other...please? meh.

Also im proud of my 1800 Elden Ring hours.

I'm actually one of those people you're describing, but younger :). i stand by my original post and what i said. i don't know why some continue to zero in on that one part of my post- almost as if people are taking it personal lmao. reeee

[Fineous🔥]

Originally posted by SHOCKNUTZ:

Originally posted by 𝕱𝖎𝖓𝖊𝖔𝖚𝖘🔥:

In this post you pigeonhole everyone playing videogames a lot with a negative stereotype.
There are people with high purchasing power who enjoyed an early retirement at 39 years of age, which ended up being a long sabbatical period. With a good job, careers, physically and mentally healthy and even practicing sports and traveling regularly.

I mean we are all gamers lets not throw negative stereotypes at each other...please? meh.

Also im proud of my 1800 Elden Ring hours.

I'm actually one of those people you're describing, but younger :). i stand by my original post and what i said. i don't know why some continue to zero in on that one part of my post- almost as if people are taking it personal lmao. reeee

Not at all from my side my man. Just trying to break stereotypes.

After we all the ones born early 80 have GPUs as bro talk....( also gym and guuurlz but more GPU lately!).

[Magic A. I.]

Originally posted by Lenox:

I also saw not one but two Honda Accords yesterday. I've also met more than one Jim before. Interesting how that works. It's almost as if it's realistic for duplicate things to exist sometimes.

Now go find two people with identical fingerprints.

Originally posted by Lenox:

Originally posted by Magic A. I.:

Also, I suspect, that From prioritizes gameplay over enemy design choices. So even if they will improve something about it, they'll make the actual fights smoother and more intense, while you'll still have to fight the same identical Tree Avatars again.

I agree with this and I welcome their design philosophy.

It works for them. But the resulting game, while good, is not as great as it could be. Imagine every single Tree Avatar was unique, had a different fighting style, intro cutscene, and story.

[Lenox]

Originally posted by Magic A. I.:

Originally posted by Lenox:

I also saw not one but two Honda Accords yesterday. I've also met more than one Jim before. Interesting how that works. It's almost as if it's realistic for duplicate things to exist sometimes.

Now go find two people with identical fingerprints.

But Tree Avatars are not all the same. They have different damage and HP amounts. Different resistances. Half of them have rot. I'm not sure what else, but maybe some are scripted to have increased aggression too. Shorter cooldowns.

And with 2022 tech, maybe that's all that FromSoft could differentiate easily. Maybe in 5-10 years, copy paste bosses will be more differentiated.

Also, they're not people. Hence why they have no names. If an enemy is important enough to be unique, it has a name. And vice versa.

If you're going to complain about a boss, complain about named ones that aren't unique enough, like Margit and Morgott, or both Mohgs. Especially when Morgott and Blood Mohg were so disappointing due to their nerfed difficulty.

Originally posted by Magic A. I.:

Originally posted by Lenox:

I agree with this and I welcome their design philosophy.

It works for them. But the resulting game, while good, is not as great as it could be. Imagine every single Tree Avatar was unique, had a different fighting style, intro cutscene, and story.

In a vacuum, sure, that would be nice. It would be nice if every single enemy in the entire game, not just field bosses, were unique. But I've played iterations of that in other games, and it doesn't add that much enjoyment for me. Maximum uniquenes is not always better. I think the game would actually be worse if they spent all that time, energy, and money to do what you're suggesting.

To achieve that in the real world, something would have to be sacrificed. What are you willing to sacrifice for 23x the work going into Tree Avatars, a fight that lasts 120 seconds? A larger development team, which would lead to a more expensive game? Fewer weapons, which are used for hours? I'm not willing to make that trade.

If your answer is a smaller world, that's basically the Dark Souls 4 argument, which is different than making all 23 Tree Avatars unique. I can't say that it would have been a bad idea because I probably would have liked it too. But hey, that's not the game Miyazaki wanted to make.

[Magic A. I.]

Originally posted by Lenox:

If you're going to complain about a boss, complain about named ones that aren't unique enough, like Margit and Morgott, or both Mohgs. Especially when Morgott and Blood Mohg were so disappointing due to their nerfed difficulty.

1. I'm not the one complaining. Don't project somebody else's folly on me please.
2. Morgott, Godrick, Mohg, and everyone else who got a clone are meh indeed.
3. Unique bosses like Rennala, Malenia, and Fire Giant are all great, and there should be more other bosses like them.

Originally posted by Lenox:

To achieve that in the real world, something would have to be sacrificed. What are you willing to sacrifice for 23x the work going into Tree Avatars, a fight that lasts 120 seconds? A larger development team, which would lead to a more expensive game? Fewer weapons, which are used for hours? I'm not willing to make that trade.

If your answer is a smaller world, that's basically the Dark Souls 4 argument, which is different than making all 23 Tree Avatars unique. I can't say that it would have been a bad idea because I probably would have liked it too. But hey, that's not the game Miyazaki wanted to make.

I'd pick a "one more year in the oven" suggestion from the OP. Which is the suggestion that we were discussing anyway.

[Lenox]

Originally posted by Magic A. I.:

Originally posted by Lenox:

If you're going to complain about a boss, complain about named ones that aren't unique enough, like Margit and Morgott, or both Mohgs. Especially when Morgott and Blood Mohg were so disappointing due to their nerfed difficulty.

1. I'm not the one complaining. Don't project somebody else's folly on me please.
2. Morgott, Godrick, Mohg, and everyone else who got a clone are meh indeed.
3. Unique bosses like Rennala, Malenia, and Fire Giant are all great, and there should be more other bosses like them.

Originally posted by Lenox:

To achieve that in the real world, something would have to be sacrificed. What are you willing to sacrifice for 23x the work going into Tree Avatars, a fight that lasts 120 seconds? A larger development team, which would lead to a more expensive game? Fewer weapons, which are used for hours? I'm not willing to make that trade.

If your answer is a smaller world, that's basically the Dark Souls 4 argument, which is different than making all 23 Tree Avatars unique. I can't say that it would have been a bad idea because I probably would have liked it too. But hey, that's not the game Miyazaki wanted to make.

I'd pick a "one more year in the oven" suggestion from the OP. Which is the suggestion that we were discussing anyway.

I meant that more as a general "you," but yeah, I could have been more clear. Your comments don't really seem like complaints, so I agree.

It's a shame about those bosses too, because I really liked the Omen lore. Godrick...I liked his castle more. As a fight, he was cool enough. Not one of my favorites.

Agreed @ more unique bosses. I'd also have paid more for a game with higher dev costs. $100 Elden Ring, anyone?

More time on a game or any tech project usually produces better results, so I'd be fine with that too.

[vamirez]

Another take at the issue (and I'll feel free to ramble because I'm back, baby) - and this can also be applied to dragons or tree spirits, etc.): You explore the whole world of this game. So from a lore / world-building view of course it makes sense that most minor erdtrees are guarded by an avatar, and there are some more. Now if you don't like fighting avatars - well, bad luck, if you want to do it all, you will also meet all of them. (Similarly, if I want to explore all oblivion gates in Tamriel, I will face a crapton of the same mobs - of course I will..., and this will be the case in any game with a similar scope.)

However, to make everything unique also wouldn't make sense from a world-building perspective. Consider that there are already different types of avatars, with different powers, in the game. Now if all of them would be completely unique, one of a kind bosses, that would be strange, too - the game would change into a theme park or feel arcade-y, and in turn feel less coherent and true to its setting.

So, can this issue be solved while keeping the game world as is? No, I don't think so. Is it really "bad/lazy game design"? No. If you have a preference for metroidvania classic Souls - fine. Solution: Only fight the avatars you really need to fight in your - what - third playthrough. Btw if a 100+ hour game holds up for two playthroughs without years between them, that's actually very good, isn't it?

[Lenox]

Originally posted by vamirez:

Another take at the issue (and I'll feel free to ramble because I'm back, baby) - and this can also be applied to dragons or tree spirits, etc.): You explore the whole world of this game. So from a lore / world-building view of course it makes sense that most minor erdtrees are guarded by an avatar, and there are some more. Now if you don't like fighting avatars - well, bad luck, if you want to do it all, you will also meet all of them. (Similarly, if I want to explore all oblivion gates in Tamriel, I will face a crapton of the same mobs - of course I will..., and this will be the case in any game with a similar scope.)

However, to make everything unique also wouldn't make sense from a world-building perspective. Consider that there are already different types of avatars, with different powers, in the game. Now if all of them would be completely unique, one of a kind bosses, that would be strange, too - the game would change into a theme park or feel arcade-y, and in turn feel less coherent and true to its setting.

So, can this issue be solved while keeping the game world as is? No, I don't think so. Is it really "bad/lazy game design"? No. If you have a preference for metroidvania classic Souls - fine. Solution: Only fight the avatars you really need to fight in your - what - third playthrough. Btw if a 100+ hour game holds up for two playthroughs without years between them, that's actually very good, isn't it?

Thank you. You get it. And welcome back.

[Magic A. I.]

Originally posted by vamirez:

—

Indeed. If ER was an RPG, this sort of conveyor-belt repetition might be immersion-breaking. But since it's just Mario World with hats, there's nothing wrong with fighting that Bowser 23 times.

Come to think of it, I like how that problem was solved in the loathsome Horizon Zero Dawn. All repeated bosses are giant robots made by an AI. So of course they will be the same, because they were literally made the same in a factory. Tree avatars are grown (?) however, and they are grown in different bioms with different fauna. There's really no reason for them to look the same except laziness and cut corners.

[vamirez]

Originally posted by Lenox:

Thank you. You get it. And welcome back.

Cheers, m8 :)

[vamirez]

Originally posted by Magic A. I.:

Originally posted by vamirez:

—

Indeed. If ER was an RPG, this sort of conveyor-belt repetition might be immersion-breaking. But since it's just Mario World with hats, there's nothing wrong with fighting that Bowser 23 times. :catinablanket:

Come to think of it, I like how that problem was solved in the loathsome Horizon Zero Dawn. All repeated bosses are giant robots made by an AI. So of course they will be the same, because they were literally made the same in a factory. Tree avatars are grown (?) however, and they are grown in different bioms with different fauna. There's really no reason for them to look the same except laziness and cut corners.

Just for you: ER is an action RPG.
As for the rest - I'm not even gonna... ;)

[Magic A. I.]

Originally posted by vamirez:

Just for you: ER is an action RPG.
As for the rest - I'm not even gonna... ;)

So you say, my Mario-playing friend, so you say.

[Lenox]

Originally posted by Magic A. I.:

Tree avatars are grown (?) however, and they are grown in different bioms with different fauna. There's really no reason for them to look the same except laziness and cut corners.

What if they had made one fat, another one skinny? Wait a minute...

Good question tho...I don't know if they're grown. Not really sure of their lore.

[Magic A. I.]

Originally posted by Lenox:

What if they had made one fat, another one skinny?

Then we'd have to fight a Tree Avatar quartet, naturally.

[Lenox]

Originally posted by Magic A. I.:

Originally posted by Lenox:

What if they had made one fat, another one skinny?

Then we'd have to fight a Tree Avatar quartet, naturally.

I like where this is going. I hope Miyazaki is reading.