Is Wretch objectively best class?

[Ash//Fox]

My first playthrough I was a pure 2h warrior, went through the whole game only bonking with claymore. Starting a new save just to experiment with new builds and noticed wretch seems to have about the same points as every other class; but also since they're a super low level wouldn't that mean they also get some free points essentially? About 4 hours in I think I'm already basically where I'd be at if I want warrior or vagabond, and club was a surprisingly good weapon...

I originally planned on just going back to my original save that's level 150 when DLC comes out but now I feel, even it's only a little, because i choose the knight class I'm always going to be a little ganked compared to a Wretch. Am I wrong in thinking this, something I'm missing?

[Alby]

Short answer: Yes

Long answer: Yes, Wretch is the best class

[2001 Space Oddity]

The difference is minimal, but the other starting classes are slightly more optimized for certain builds. For example if you're never going to use sorcery, do you really need 10 int? You could pick a class with 7 int and use those 3 points towards a different stat that is better for your build.

[Sephylon]

Early game sure, reach 170+ and the starting stats stop mattering as much.

[Clail]

Technically if you know theres a stat you absolutely don't want one of the other classes would be more optimal.

As an example if you plan a faith caster, and want absolutely as few points in INT as possible, then any class with an INT less than 10 would be more favorable than Wretch.

At the end of the day though class choice really doesn't matter beyond very, very tiny gains that are only noticable on paper, starting gear, and starting magic capabilities.

[MULTIPASS]

Originally posted by Ash//Fox:

they're a super low level wouldn't that mean they also get some free points essentially?

No, all classes are exactly the same in terms of total levels. Wretch with all 10's is the baseline, other classes subtract points from some stats to put into others and then have a certain number of early levels locked-in for certain stat choices.

If you took all classes and raised all their stats to 16+, they will all be the same level.

Wretch is good if you want the freedom to respec into something completely different later, or if you just like the challenge of starting naked with just a club. In terms of theoretical stat build efficiency, it's actually the worst class. The only efficiency gain you can get comes from having stat points subtracted below the 10 baseline and re-allocated to the stats you want to use.

[REhorror]

The other classes have good weapons and specific stats built into specific build so it's easier to build.

Wretch is good for versatility but you must spend a little time at the beginning to get armors and weapons.

[Narm]

Anything other than wretch is basically just for the starter gear. And maybe build OCD where you feel like you need those extra 4 stat points to hit a softcap.

[psheue]

What class you pick only matters for min-maxing.

[SpalonyGolem]

Besides looking nice in your character spreadsheet and slightly faster leveling for first 8 minutes, it has nothing.

Which is a lot and im sad that i planned and minmaxed a build.

[Vinnolo]

if you are talking about min maxing, wretch is rarely the best option, any class with less than 10 arcane int or faith is usually the best, depending on what build you are going for, vagabond for example, is amazing for faith builds, because you get more or less enough str and dex for early game and get bonus points from low arcane and int, not to mention extra starting vigor and endurance, which is a stat everyone uses

[justfaded]

It's actually the very worst class for min maxing for most builds.

[psheue]

Necromancer is the best class.

[Dollmaker]

In general, yes, but not for Min-Maxing builds, where its close if not the worst one.

[crayon eater]

Reject modernity
Return to wretch

[Xengre]

Originally posted by 2001 Space Oddity:

The difference is minimal, but the other starting classes are slightly more optimized for certain builds. For example if you're never going to use sorcery, do you really need 10 int? You could pick a class with 7 int and use those 3 points towards a different stat that is better for your build.

This is probably the most well rounded answer if keeping it short.

Adding onto this answer there are cases where you might want to actually be flexible and this is where Wretch starts to really begin to standout. It has an even stat skew. This matters because if you are playing somewhat optimally you are essentially forced to "fix" every other class so why not just start out properly to begin with. Still, the ultimate answer is it only matters in the very brief run and you can very easily fix it.

Having 10 Int & 10 faith from the start is particularly valuable because with a single talisman or talisman+headgear you can achieve core breakpoints for some of the most useful spells for a non-magic oriented character, and even if you went skewed into Int caster or Faith build these are still relevant.

For example you might not need 10 int as mentioned by 2001 SO, but just having 10 Int means you can pop on a talisman and hit 15 giving you access to...

- Scholar's Shield (12 int) which can allow quite a few lighter shields to reach complete dmg negation and stamina drain reduction. In PvE blocking is considerably overpowered if done right with numerous advantages (less sensitive window to protect yourself from dmg, faster reaction after enemy attack to punish them compared to roll, can use less stamina, great on particularly complicated/dangerous attacks).

- Night Maiden's Mist (14 int) is arguably one of the most versatile offensive spells if you toy around and figure when and how to effectively utilized it. It also penetrates enemy defenses making certain types of oddball rare enemies in some locations far easier. It is an efficient AoE and has incredible dmg output for laughable FP/Int requirements. It can be used as a way to supplement dmg on a tankier boss that isn't very mobile if you can coral it in the mist while attacking it as an extra layer of DPS uptime.

- Glintstone Pebble (Int 10) One of the most basic spells in the entire game yet very effective and efficient. Even with a meager 10-15 Int this spell can readily dispatch specific enemies trivializing them that might otherwise prove obnoxious. It is effective virtually the entire game despite lack of stat investment or catalyst upgrade on most birds, most dogs, on imps, miner enemies, and even many basic mobs. You may have to cast 2-3, maybe 4x in some cases, compared to a mage but this is hardly a bad trade off rather than dealing with iffy camera, them dodging, if they're in groups, or if you just particularly stink at one of them (ex. birds/dogs get a lot of hate from some people, why idk but this makes them really easy).

- Glintstone Stars (Int 12) This one is an interesting option to brute force enemies who dodge the prior offensive spell due to being prone to dodging. It can be useful to trivialize some fights such as invasions or certain mobile basic mobs, but it is a bit of an FP intensive yet potent counter. Prepare those Ashen flask.

- Unseen Form (Int 16, talisman+headgear) easily one of the best spells in the entire game. Completely trivializes entire chunks of the game including areas like Haligtree bubble/ants section, and so forth. If your goal is to simply get through an area you don't care to bother with or are struggling this is probably your ace.

- Thops's Barrier (18 Int, talisman+headgear) This spell is fairly fast to cast and can deflect a huge number of spells and such in this game. It also has a slight lingering effect so you don't have to have perfect timing and thus it also can work on persistent/multi-hit spells to varying degrees of success. There is an Ash of War version, too, which has a slightly faster startup but doesn't have the lingering effect and isn't as reliable against many types of attacks. However, I wouldn't say one is superior to the other. They would both be tools to consider depending on the enemy type, but odds are spells you would use the Ash of War version against you could have simply rolled or basic shield blocked while this one is more useful against heavy spammers or multi-hit projectile magic.

What about Faith then?

Before I go further though, I should point out for anyone not familiar with stat importance Vigor is always priority no matter your build, even as a magic user. Now faith is essentially the second most valuable stat investment in the game yet it does not require a large investment to get huge returns, far more than other stats award. So if you have 10 Faith and throw on the +5 talisman or potentially also the headgear...

- First, you get access to miracles. Miracles are actually substantially more efficient than straight heals from Crimson Flasks if you convert the amount of FP you get from a Cerulean Flask into FP then into a given Prayer and finally its recovered health. Regen spells are gradual but superb efficiency for the sheer amount of HP yet super low FP cost they recover while exploring and not needing immediate healing. They're a great way to offset gradual "oops" damage from combat, traps, etc. Flat healing miracles may take slightly longer but even with low Faith are much more efficient for non-boss encounters, or with the right setup comparable even for bosses while being more efficient. Even if you don't get high enough FP to not waste part of a Cerulean's recovered FP due to it recovering more than you have Miracles are already way more efficient, but if you invest a bit into FP (as often you will for Ash of War use anyways and because it scales decently fast with minor investment) it becomes that much more potent to carry mostly Cerulean Flasks and perhaps only 2-3 Crimson emergency for quick heals (or 0 if you get used to using miracles well enough, at least against most enemies/bosses).

- Buffs are another potent boon from just a meager faith stat. I wont list every single one here but both the offensive and defensive ones can produce great effects. The offensive ones can often produce a superior offensive output compared to straight investing in the normal offensive stats and scales very well all game multiplicatively. It is very flexible and there are more than one offensive buffing faith spells, some of which can be stacked (like body + weapon) or elementally pursued. The defensive spells may be nerfed (but hardly useless) in PvP but they're ridiculously imbalanced in PvE. The basic tier ones provide considerable and decent length resistance to enemy attacks while the greater ones, if you are willing to use a Mixed Physicks or invest a little extra into Faith can essentially shut down an entire boss class enemy depending.

- There are also a substantial number of utility faith spells, spells that don't need Faith scaling to be useful like applying DoTs or other effects, and so on.

There is also the fact that being at 10 Str / Dex is also a breakpoint for a large number of equippable weapons, too, that can either be accessed at that point or with the equipping of a talisman/headgear, granted it might actually be better in a few off cases depending on your needs to get like 12 or 13 points and then use talisman, but it will depend on what you ultimately need. Small investment, either way.

In short, being a Wretch grants easy access by simply equipping a piece of gear when you think it may be useful and then removing said gear while not having to invest further stats. However, as was mentioned prior by others as well as myself all classes can do this you just have to fix their stats to support such flexibility. Of course, if you are going to fix them why pick them to begin with.

However, I do believe there could be an argument made for a min-maxed hyper PvP oriented character that doesn't really care about PvE and the lower the level the more this rings true. While much of what I mentioned above can be useful, they're often not tools those specifically pursuing PvP will utilize including the miracle healing fact. Buffs are often heavily nerfed for many of them in PvP, too, and are just an edge in min-maxing and if the other player is good enough, and patient, it can prove fruitless to utilize buffs.