Patch 1.10 Poise

[Gwyn]

I don't really see this changing much. People still poise through the lighter weapons, if not by endure then by hyper armor from heavy weapons. So high poise and heavy weapons still seem the strongest. Doesn't feel that different

[WhiteMamba]

Opprinnelig skrevet av ajv941:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Señor Brown:

Is there actual numbers on the hyperarmor yet? Looked at both of those resources, but couldn't find anything about staggering, only the damage reduction.

Yea it could be more fleshed out.

The tiers dictate what they will protect against. Great hyperarmor defense meaning great weapons and lighter will not stagger it (unsure about R2's/jumping R2's). Great weapons also have that hyperarmor when swung, colossals have colossal hyperarmor, etc. I'm unsure if these are hard tiers or just how the poise works out. In the latter case I'm not sure if it's possible to break/fall into other tiers. It feels pretty consistent from my experience though, and I'm guessing since there's specific damage reduction numbers that it's hard tiers. That means the spreadsheet shows only what few weapons can be neutral poised. However there are actually a lot of currently problematic ashes that can be neutral poised according to the same spreadsheet.

Poise could also still dictate how many hyperarmor frames you have. From some limited testing I did that seems to be true.

If this was true then poise number would be completely useless, but for me it seems like I can poise through more things with gavel of haima when I have more poise. This is just damage reduction, not the hyperarmor values

[Ca1(Flower)]

Opprinnelig skrevet av styx:

I don't really see this changing much. People still poise through the lighter weapons, if not by endure then by hyper armor from heavy weapons. So high poise and heavy weapons still seem the strongest. Doesn't feel that different

This favors to hyperarmor. Passive poise is non existent in the PVP exclusive. This was because the Passive poise ruined most of the weapons and rendered every Ashes of war, incantations, and other weapon classes useless. Now literally every weapon can stagger people on their first hit with is a huge plus and that means other stuff that were useless are much stronger.

The powerful AOW, Weapons did have hidden potential. It was because passive poise was locking them away and now every single weapon has poise damage buff, they're all reliable. Colossal weapons are unstoppable once they attack. You can't break them out of hyperarmor. If they're poising through lighter armor, that means, they have better hyperarmor than you unless you're using Greatswords, and Colossal weapon classes.

[Big Daddy-Chan]

Opprinnelig skrevet av styx:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Rising Gale:

Poise wasn't directly nerfed poise damage was buffed. If youre getting poised you need to stop attacking while someone swinging a large piece of metal is in their attack animation you need to catch them.

I get that but what if they just spamming and never let you go for catches, at that point its trade battle

Not a trade if they are doing that and have no stamina to retaliate or dodge lol

[WhiteMamba]

Opprinnelig skrevet av csand:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Señor Brown:

It seems that the patch was based on some work by a modder and content creator named Gabri. The patch changes resemble a lot of the fixes proposed by his PvP overhaul mod. It partly explains why other content creators are praising the changes: "the devs actually listened".

That explains why it's such utter trash. That mod was garbage and now you mention it Yea this patch resembles it a lot.

It doesn't encourage spacing or strategy at all. It encourages the same boring, passive, unexciting gameplay that is exactly the type you see in their sad little pvp tournaments.

They should never, ever listen to these YouTubers. Gabri and every other "pro pvp" YouTuber cam lick my nuts frankly, they do nothing of value for these games

I wouldnt call it trash. In my opinion its a step in the right direction, but we gonna need few weeks to figure out what's broken and another patch to fix it. Passive reactionary play is not as effective as it used to be in DS3 - no R1 combos, 2nd R1 has reduced poise dmg, running attacks do more poise dmg than R1s etc etc. If I would change something I'd add more startup frames to hyperarmor on some weapon classes and skills plus I wouldn't want it to reset poise health, cause right now its harder to break random greatsword's hyperarmor with a straight sword than it was to poise break full bullgoat guy before the patch.

[WhiteMamba]

Opprinnelig skrevet av csand:

Opprinnelig skrevet av WhiteMamba:

I wouldnt call it trash. In my opinion its a step in the right direction, but we gonna need few weeks to figure out what's broken and another patch to fix it. Passive reactionary play is not as effective as it used to be in DS3 - no R1 combos, 2nd R1 has reduced poise dmg, running attacks do more poise dmg than R1s etc etc. If I would change something I'd add more startup frames to hyperarmor on some weapon classes and skills plus I wouldn't want it to reset poise health, cause right now its harder to break random greatsword's hyperarmor with a straight sword than it was to poise break full bullgoat guy before the patch.

Yep. You can hyperarmor through the second hit no matter what, so if you get hit just hold r2 and fold your opponent up after they hit you.

They need make some adjustments. Arena is already losing players. There is zero need for any strategy, spacing, or timing now. Just mash buttons and hyper armor through anything. I can win any match with an estoc and spamming R1. Janky Dark Souls 3 backstabs are back. Totally braindead patch.

The pro pvp crowd has been complaining this isn't Dark Souls 3 since the name came out and now they turned it into Dark Souls 3 but crappier. Invasions are blender central, the same cancerous builds are double so now, armor is meaningless

When there is nobody left in the PvP community but the YouTube personalities and their handful of simps, I guess they'll be satisfied they have their little boys club back

As if you couldnt win every single duel with an estoc before. Honestly thrusting swords are a little bit weaker than in 1.09 thanks to quickstep nerf and 2nd R1 being less dangerous, but im not lowering myself to use it and test it all.

You cant hyperarmor through 2nd hit always - you can poise through light weapons with the passive poise, but bigger things will follow up before you recover and activate the hyperarmor.

And looking at the numbers there are more players playing now than pre patch. Personally dont give a sh about Gabri and all that whiny rants about how it isnt like DS3, but right now its something in between DS3 and previous version of ER

Last thing: few words about my main weapons I used before and what I thing about the changes around them:
1. Darkmoon GS - greatswords hyperarmor is way too easy to take the advantage of, I said many times I think its too much, but on the other hand I prefer one handed moveset and 1H has 0 hyperarmor which I dont like either - the gap between 1H and 2H is way too big
2. Carian Knight Sword - barely any change for me. R1s break poise, but dont break hyperarmor at all. Previously I could hit R1 on a high poise guy, then roll, then hit again and stagger him that way - now its impossible, but R2s are just as good as they used to be.
3. Wing Of Astel - this thing is crazy good right now, since both the blade and the magic wave do poise damage and can break some hyperarmors.
4. Regalia of Eochaid - it was useless in pvp before due to low range and very low poise damage of the skill, now its actually quite good, the drill can stagger people

[Honk1]

Not sure yet what I think about the patch.

What I definitely don't like is that some weapons were kind of left behind with the hyper armor changes:

- My favourite weapon is the Grave Scythe and it does not have any real hyper armor (only this weird "ignores light weapons" thing). Now suddenly a greatsword can just poise through my 2-handed attacks, but I can't hyper armor through anything they do. With reapers being rather on the slow side, that's not good. I think reapers were in a really good place before the patch and definitely not too strong.

- I also tried the Iron Cleaver, the only axe I liked to play before the patch. One of it's defining traits is the super cool heavy attack where you charge at people like a madman. Guess what? It has no hyper armor, making it almost useless. This feels like an oversight.

Also, ash of war balance is all over the place. On the Grave Scythe, I run Storm Caller and Bloodflame Blade. Before the patch, it was a "get off me"-type ash with the potential to kill. Now, you get really cheap kills with it. Doesn't feel good to me.

In case anyone is interested: You can break 2-handed colossal weapon hyper armor with 2-handed heavy attacks of greatswords, I was using Banished Knight Sword against a duo with Ghiza's Wheel and Golem's Halberd and staggered them out of the middle of their attack animations several times.

[Señor Brown]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Honk1:

Not sure yet what I think about the patch.

What I definitely don't like is that some weapons were kind of left behind with the hyper armor changes:
...

You can add the Veteran's Prosthesis to the list. Despite all of the storm ashes of war being buffed by the poise update, Storm Kick still has no hyperarmor on the initial hit.

[Señor Brown]

Opprinnelig skrevet av WhiteMamba:

You cant hyperarmor through 2nd hit always - you can poise through light weapons with the passive poise, but bigger things will follow up before you recover and activate the hyperarmor.

1. Darkmoon GS - greatswords hyperarmor is way too easy to take the advantage of, I said many times I think its too much, but on the other hand I prefer one handed moveset and 1H has 0 hyperarmor which I dont like either - the gap between 1H and 2H is way too big
2. Carian Knight Sword - barely any change for me. R1s break poise, but dont break hyperarmor at all. Previously I could hit R1 on a high poise guy, then roll, then hit again and stagger him that way - now its impossible, but R2s are just as good as they used to be.

I've had more than a handful of instances where the second 2H R1 of both a Shamshir and a Cleanrot's Knight Sword would stagger me right after staggering me from the first 2H R1. This was despite both queuing a great weapon R1 (for hyperarmor) and having 109 passive poise (well above the 70.2 poise damage of the follow R1s). Don't know if it was a P2P issue with my poise not being reset on the other side, the "pre-hyperamor" frames somehow reducing my passive poise, or perhaps something else. But it was very unusual and concerning.

And I agree about the first two weapons. Had a host using a DMGS during an invasion and the hyperarmor is brutal. And someone was outspacing my greataxe very well with the fancy block R2 during a duel a few days ago.

[SpilledBeans]

Opprinnelig skrevet av ExCa1ius:

Opprinnelig skrevet av styx:

I don't really see this changing much. People still poise through the lighter weapons, if not by endure then by hyper armor from heavy weapons. So high poise and heavy weapons still seem the strongest. Doesn't feel that different

This favors to hyperarmor. Passive poise is non existent in the PVP exclusive. This was because the Passive poise ruined most of the weapons and rendered every Ashes of war, incantations, and other weapon classes useless. Now literally every weapon can stagger people on their first hit with is a huge plus and that means other stuff that were useless are much stronger.

The powerful AOW, Weapons did have hidden potential. It was because passive poise was locking them away and now every single weapon has poise damage buff, they're all reliable. Colossal weapons are unstoppable once they attack. You can't break them out of hyperarmor. If they're poising through lighter armor, that means, they have better hyperarmor than you unless you're using Greatswords, and Colossal weapon classes.

this type of comment always comes from someone like you that understands very little to nothing of high level pvp, if you looked at top tier setups before the patch you would have realized that most of them didnt break poise in 1 hit like ps ss and ps s. now the only thing that changed is that most weapons are somewhat viable, still that doesnt make them good or meta this is the big difference, if your skill level is high enough you can beat someone using a stronger setup with a weaker one more easily now (probably or probably not) but those weapons are still bad against stronger players , in fact the only thing this patch did was making strong setups even stronger and more broken

[Bloodford08]

1.10 patch make ds3 pvp poise

[Señor Brown]

Opprinnelig skrevet av ajv941:

I read someone say that 73 poise was required to hyperarmor into another greatsword when using a greatsword. I dropped my poise to 72 to test this out and was still able to hyperarmor through a 2h greatsword. I then found someone who was willing to help me test and dropped my poise down to 64 where I was still able to hyperarmor through another 2h greatsword R1. Then I dropped to around 50 poise and raised it gradually to 56 poise through which I was unable to poise through any R1's before I ran out of health. So there seems to be some merit to poise still affecting what hyperarmor can poise through. These were the first or running r1's as well.

Random note, I did manage to catch a nagakiba R2 at 72 poise and hyperarmor it for whatever that's worth.

Found this spreadsheet with the hyperarmor values for weapons, ashes of war, and spells updated to patch 1.10 on the BadRedMan reddit: www.docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVyZi-Do3NAcfyMzwE2cTzHc5Yp99fSLuKt-X71JAss/edit#gid=0

EDIT: wording; the spreadsheet may not be completely accurate, as WhiteMamba correctly pointed out below that flails do have hyperarmor

[Rising Gale]

Have any of you tried rejection? Seems like a funny way to counter r1 spam lol

[Tander]

Opprinnelig skrevet av 𝑀𝓊𝑔𝑒𝓃:

At this point i have given up on the pvp ever being as fun as DS 3 , yes that game had issues mainly in the form of the murky , the pkcs although annoying was still tame compared to some of the stuff i experienced in ER

Pokes is the name of the game here , no matter the poise break buffs debuffs it simply don't matter

It would be a lot better if 6 player limit was implemented, as well as the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid damage curve being fixed, feels like everything deals 20% of your health bare minimum, 100% maximum, even with a glass cannon build in DS3, you would struggle to one shot players, you don't even need a glass cannon build in ER to one shot, otherwise 2-3 shot players with light-speed attacks, it's really hard to enjoy the PvP when it's in a state like this...

[Señor Brown]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Tander:

Opprinnelig skrevet av 𝑀𝓊𝑔𝑒𝓃:

At this point i have given up on the pvp ever being as fun as DS 3 , yes that game had issues mainly in the form of the murky , the pkcs although annoying was still tame compared to some of the stuff i experienced in ER

Pokes is the name of the game here , no matter the poise break buffs debuffs it simply don't matter

It would be a lot better if 6 player limit was implemented, as well as the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid damage curve being fixed, feels like everything deals 20% of your health bare minimum, 100% maximum, even with a glass cannon build in DS3, you would struggle to one shot players, you don't even need a glass cannon build in ER to one shot, otherwise 2-3 shot players with light-speed attacks, it's really hard to enjoy the PvP when it's in a state like this...

Yep, the high damage with poise changes makes stunlock more punishing in invasions. Testing it from both the invader and co-op phantom perspective at meta (RL138), some notable blenders include:

- Stunlocked to death as an invader by a single 2H axe R1 into another player's powerstanced great spear queued jumping L1 INTO another 2H axe R1 from the first player. Had about 75% health (60 vigor)
- Stunlocked an invader with a Pike running R2 right after they whiff punished the host, which then combo'd into the host's colossal sword 2h R1 INTO a pike 2h R1 from me. Reduced invader health from ~80% to the Physick Bubbletear activating (Tears of Denial).
- Had a low poise Hand of Malenia invader combo'd to death from full health by a running greataxe R2 into another player's queued doot hammer bubble shower into the third player's fully charged Night comet. Each bubble held the invader stunlocked long enough for the third player to charge up the Night Comet.

Not impossible to win invasions, but it will be a lot risker to engage a group with an ounce of coordination (i.e. keep close enough to punish the whiff punish).

Haven't tested above/below meta, nor have I tested any sort of caster with the updated spell poise damage.

[WhiteMamba]

Something's not entirely right with those google docs you posted here.
For example Flails 100% do have an innate poise, but are listed as the weapon class without any hyperarmor
Next thing: it would be weird, if greathammer's running R2 did less poise damage than running R1, but knowing FromSoftware it is believable.

Anyway, if the total poise is really calculated as [armor poise+hyperarmor]*2 with the talisman reducing incoming poise damage to 75% it would explain why hyperarmor feels so busted. Just made a little bit of calculation using those 2 google docs posted here about how in the world a morning star user with relatively light armor and using only R1s poised through my greathammer's 2H running R2 into multiple R1s combo and the result is my weapon did 208 poise damage (after 0,75 multiplier) on initial swing while he had around [60 armor poise+52 innate poise]*2 and the poise health probably resets with every swing that has hyperarmor. Thats dumb.

Still like this new patch tho, just stating what feels stupid to me