Lore question: Why did the black knife assassins go after Ranni's gang?

[Thomas Devlin]

There are a lot of mysterious tidbits in this game that require you to look pretty deep into the lore to have explained, but there's one moment I never understood, why did the black knife assassins try to kill Blaidd and successfully kill Iji? Ranni was the one that set up the knight of the black knifes so it's confusing that they would turn on them, and you find several corpses around both of them after the attacks, so it was definitely a planned assault. What's even more confusing is that Iji is burning with black flames, not destined death like you would imagine, the only thing I can imagine is the black knife assassins somehow got mixed up with the godskin apostles and they were trying to take out Ranni, but that's just a guess

[John Titor]

Originally posted by Thomas Devlin:

Lore question: Why did the black knife assassins go after Ranni's gang?

She sent them to clean house.

[fauxpas]

Because Ranni betrayed them, they thought the Night was met to strike against the demigods and usher in thier version of the new Age.

Ranni instead used them to ensure her soul survived the death of her body, imprisoned thier leader, and is trying to usher in her vision of the new Age instead of thiers.


Add to that the fact the Knifes are connected to players far older than Ranni, namely Marika and probably the Gloam Eyed Queen and its clear Ranni never had thier loyalty.

[rabureta]

Also because we stole the Treasure of Nokron and I doubt they're too pleased with that.

[fauxpas]

Originally posted by rabureta:

Also because we stole the Treasure of Nokron and I doubt they're too pleased with that.

That too, although I assume that if they didn't know what Ranni was planning and why the killing of Goldwyn didn't go according to plan before hand, stealing the one weapon capable of slaying a Fingers connected the dots for them.

[CourtesyFlush09]

I don't believe it's directly stated in the game (go figure), but we do know that the Black Knives were Numen - the same as Marika. They are also stated to be her acquaintances iirc, which means they probably knew her personally.

Maybe the Greater Will or the Two Fingers finally caught wind of Ranni's plot to usher in a new age (effectively betraying the Golden Order in the process), so the Assassins were sent to kill her (they failed), Blaidd (they failed again), and Iji (they succeeded).

But then that begs the question: If the Assassins were truly loyal and obedient to the Golden Order/Greater Will/Two Fingers, wouldn't they have refused Ranni's request to murder Godwyn in the first? Since Godwyn in the son of Marika - a fellow Numen and the Greater Will's "chosen one"? Why would they listen to Ranni, unless Ranni deceived them (which is entirely possible).

[fauxpas]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

I don't believe it's directly stated in the game (go figure), but we do know that the Black Knives were Numen - the same as Marika. They are also stated to be her acquaintances iirc, which means they probably knew her personally.

Maybe the Greater Will or the Two Fingers finally caught wind of Ranni's plot to usher in a new age (effectively betraying the Golden Order in the process), so the Assassins were sent to kill her (they failed), Blaidd (they failed again), and Iji (they succeeded).

But then that begs the question: If the Assassins were truly loyal and obedient to the Golden Order/Greater Will/Two Fingers, wouldn't they have refused Ranni's request to murder Godwyn in the first? Since Godwyn in the son of Marika - a fellow Numen and the Greater Will's "chosen one"? Why would they listen to Ranni, unless Ranni deceived them (which is entirely possible).

Something to consider is that just because they are rumored to be connected to Marika because of shared ethnicity doesn't mean they were loyal to her, especially given the ties to the Eternal Cities it's far more likely they are a guild for hire.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by fauxpas:

Something to consider is that just because they are rumored to be connected to Marika because of shared ethnicity doesn't mean they were loyal to her, especially given the ties to the Eternal Cities it's far more likely they are a guild for hire.

The Black Knife armor says this:

"The assassins that carried out the deeds of the Night of the Black Knives were all women, and rumored to be Numen who had close ties with Marika herself."

When someone has close ties with someone else, it's often used in a positive way and shows that the 2 people are close and friendly to each other.

I'm willing to bet that the Assassins either were or still are loyal to Marika. Hell, maybe Marika actually wanted Godwyn to die so she could have a legitimate reason to shatter the Elden Ring and hopefully loosen the Greater Will's chokehold on the land (which kinda worked if you think about since the Greater Will is said to have abandoned the Lands Between after she did). That would be some 4D chess from Marika right there.

[maido]

I was never under the impression that the Black Knives were controlled by Ranni. They just worked together with her temporarily to take out Godwyn. Their real loyalties may lie with Marika. When Ranni departed they took it as an opportunity to take out her followers.

[fauxpas]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Originally posted by fauxpas:

Something to consider is that just because they are rumored to be connected to Marika because of shared ethnicity doesn't mean they were loyal to her, especially given the ties to the Eternal Cities it's far more likely they are a guild for hire.

The Black Knife armor says this:

"The assassins that carried out the deeds of the Night of the Black Knives were all women, and rumored to be Numen who had close ties with Marika herself."

When someone has close ties with someone else, it's often used in a positive way and shows that the 2 people are close and friendly to each other.

I'm willing to bet that the Assassins either were or still are loyal to Marika. Hell, maybe Marika actually wanted Godwyn to die so she could have a legitimate reason to shatter the Elden Ring and hopefully loosen the Greater Will's chokehold on the land (which kinda worked if you think about since the Greater Will is said to have abandoned the Lands Between after she did). That would be some 4D chess from Marika right there.

I have "close ties" (by blood) with my family as well ... doesn't change the fact that I went no contact with them.

The phrase close ties can mean many things, and the fact that their race being the same as Marika's is specifically mentioned implies they are talking about blood, and the fact the Black Knifes are said to be tied to the Eternal Cities implies they are not in fact loyal to the Golden Order.

[John Titor]

Originally posted by Ranni:

Even when I turned my back upon the Two Fingers.
Blaidd remained my loyal ally.
Heh. Though he was created a vassal for an Empyrean,
He was a colossal failure, on the part of the Two Fingers.
Blaidd, and Iji both... Art willing to give too much to me.
Yet they both understand. What lieth beyond the dark path...
That I must betray everything, and rid the world of what came before.
Ah, should I add thee to the list?
Another one, kind of heart. As kind of heart as they.

Ach, this form hath loosened my tongue.
I've let slip too much.
Forget what thou'st heard. Forget.

[OntologicalWeevil]

Ranni's servants were agents of the two fingers, esp Blaidd who went mad because of her betrayal.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by fauxpas:

and the fact the Black Knifes are said to be tied to the Eternal Cities implies they are not in fact loyal to the Golden Order.

That's highly debatable, since the Black Knife Assassins only start killing (or try to kill) Ranni's friends right after we take the Fingerslayer Blade from the Eternal City, and as we know that thing can actually harm the Greater Will and its vassals.

So it's very reasonable to conclude that the Assassins are still loyal to the Greater Will at that point (i.e. Greater Will/Two Fingers discover that the Fingerslayer has been taken --> they order the Assassins to kill whoever took it and bring it back).

It's such a big mystery that I'll actually be upset if they don't cover it in the DLC.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by fauxpas:

The phrase close ties can mean many things, and the fact that their race being the same as Marika's is specifically mentioned implies they are talking about blood, and the fact the Black Knifes are said to be tied to the Eternal Cities implies they are not in fact loyal to the Golden Order.

You know what? I actually think you might be on to something about the Assassins being upset by Ranni's betrayal.

John posted her quote above, which shows that she's willing to betray anyone to complete her goal (thanks, John!).

And then there's the fact that the Assassins' leader, Alecto, is imprisoned in that one Evergaol in the Moonlight Altar. So maybe Ranni put Alecto there after the latter confronted her? Very cool theory. Kudos.

[KaiserSchnitzel]

Originally posted by Thomas Devlin:

There are a lot of mysterious tidbits in this game that require you to look pretty deep into the lore to have explained, but there's one moment I never understood, why did the black knife assassins try to kill Blaidd and successfully kill Iji? Ranni was the one that set up the knight of the black knifes so it's confusing that they would turn on them, and you find several corpses around both of them after the attacks, so it was definitely a planned assault. What's even more confusing is that Iji is burning with black flames, not destined death like you would imagine, the only thing I can imagine is the black knife assassins somehow got mixed up with the godskin apostles and they were trying to take out Ranni, but that's just a guess

Because they didn't like the uninterrupted co-op that Ranni was enjoying with her crew and wanted to spoil the fun; the true ending is Ranni makes a mod to avoid PVP

[fauxpas]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Originally posted by fauxpas:

and the fact the Black Knifes are said to be tied to the Eternal Cities implies they are not in fact loyal to the Golden Order.

That's highly debatable, since the Black Knife Assassins only start killing (or try to kill) Ranni's friends right after we take the Fingerslayer Blade from the Eternal City, and as we know that thing can actually harm the Greater Will and its vassals.

So it's very reasonable to conclude that the Assassins are still loyal to the Greater Will at that point (i.e. Greater Will/Two Fingers discover that the Fingerslayer has been taken --> they order the Assassins to kill whoever took it and bring it back).

It's such a big mystery that I'll actually be upset if they don't cover it in the DLC.

The issue is that the Black Knifes are 'scions of the Eternal City' ... and that very strongly indicates that despite thier ties to Marika they are not loyal to the Greater Will or the Golden Order. It also ties the Nox and Numen together given thier rumored ties to Marika.


So the question becomes what was Marika's role, if any in the Night? ... I suspect the DLC is going to be focused on Miq and Goldwyn, so we might get some lore, but I think it'll be more focused on the H-Tree.