How are they the same? (spoilers, who cares)

[Burger]

The twist that "Radagon is Marika" is so dumb to me. I love the game and the lore, mostly. But I just dont GET this one. They're the same person but also two separate people who had children? It just seems like one of those cheap plot twists like "it was all a dream" in movies. Is it not?

[SHOCKNUTZ]

it is possible
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtlB7q96NMs

[Wushiba]

Originally posted by Benjunt:

The twist that "Radagon is Marika" is so dumb to me. I love the game and the lore, mostly. But I just dont GET this one. They're the same person but also two separate people who had children? It just seems like one of those cheap plot twists like "it was all a dream" in movies. Is it not?

I agree but soon some lore expert will explain it all to us and then I will probably disagree with you and praise how brilliant it is.

Edit: I guess a reason for it could be to appeal to woke people, like the A and B bodytypes instead of Male and Female.

[MrSoul]

Originally posted by Benjunt:

The twist that "Radagon is Marika" is so dumb to me. I love the game and the lore, mostly. But I just dont GET this one. They're the same person but also two separate people who had children? It just seems like one of those cheap plot twists like "it was all a dream" in movies. Is it not?

They're gods, so normal familiar relationships don't apply as concept of their very existence is not...normal. I'm not gonna go on some case this was all well thought out or anything more than Miyazaki and GRR smoking a fat one and reading through university level greek and roman studies textbooks, but there is a lot of real world mythology behind this concept(and for sure think argument are gender themes relevant to it running throughout the game's plot), so give it them that I don't feel like a cop out, more just them aping off real world myths etc and stumbling more than a bit at the finish line imo too:

https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/androgynes
"In mythology, such a creature is usually a god and is sometimes called a hermaphrodite, after Hermaphroditus, son of Hermes and Aphrodite, who is said to have grown together with the nymph Salmacis"

(this next one is almost more of the same, ie people remixing old myths, but obviously bit older than ER)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebis#:~:text=The%20Rebis%20(from%20the%20Latin,magnum%20opus%20or%20great%20work.
"The Rebis (from the Latin res bina, meaning dual or double matter) is the end product of the alchemical magnum opus or great work.

After one has gone through the stages of putrefaction and purification, separating opposing qualities, those qualities are united once more in what is sometimes described as the divine hermaphrodite, a reconciliation of spirit and matter, a being of both male and female qualities as indicated by the male and female head within a single body. The sun and moon correspond to the male and female halves, just as the Red King and White Queen are similarly associated."

[Quillithe]

Originally posted by Benjunt:

The twist that "Radagon is Marika" is so dumb to me. I love the game and the lore, mostly. But I just dont GET this one. They're the same person but also two separate people who had children? It just seems like one of those cheap plot twists like "it was all a dream" in movies. Is it not?

Considering they're a God, it's no weirder than the Holy Trinity.

[mayhem523]

Anyway, there's a number of theories about Radagon and Marika. One is that they were seperate entities that eventually merged into one. Or that they started off as one and kind of split off from eachother later. It doesn't necessarily have to be that only one can exist at a time, like transforming from one to the other.

Then again, at the end of the game you literally see Marika transform into Radagon if I'm not mistaken, so who knows.

[The One True Git]

Originally posted by mayhem523:

Anyway, there's a number of theories about Radagon and Marika. One is that they were seperate entities that eventually merged into one. Or that they started off as one and kind of split off from eachother later. It doesn't necessarily have to be that only one can exist at a time, like transforming from one to the other.

Then again, at the end of the game you literally see Marika transform into Radagon if I'm not mistaken, so who knows.

I can't remember who had said it but I saw a really cool theory that Marika is/was a individual and then Radagon was 'created' and 'joined to' her by the Greater Will as a means of control, hence it being Radagon who is turned into the Elden Beast's sword.

[Vinnolo]

considering marika is a god, well anything is possible, think of it as a host of multiple personalities, as to from where radagon comes or if he was always there, there is no straight answer, they are def the same person as seen in the radagon boss fight intro

[lacrimosa1206]

Tldr warning

Radagon and Marika are one and the same being, but their selves are in conflict with each other. It is likely that Marika is the base form, and Radagon is the parasitic self that the Elden Beast (a manifestation of the Elden Ring acting on behalf of the Greater Will) planted within Marika to accomplish its mission in the Lands Between.

Marika's purpose is to destroy the Elden Ring and expel the Greater Will's influence from the world, while Radagon is a servant of the Elden Ring and is basically the Greater Will's slave. This is why Radagon's statue is always depicted with grid-like pattern behind his back--the thorns door blocking access to the Erdtree has the same grid-like/chessboard pattern, implying that it was Radagon who erected the thorn wall and blocked all access to the Erdtree in an effort to protect the Elden Ring from further destruction after Marika shattered it.

At this point it becomes necessary to ask "But what exactly is the Elden Ring?" --> Elden Ring is the concept of "Order" given form by the Greater Will, an outer deity of order. The Greater Will doesn't care for mortal lives, unlike Marika: it is only interested in bringing order to the universe and if mortals prove detrimental to this purpose, then it doesn't mind leaving them to rot and die. Marika wants to save these people, and for this purpose she destroyed the Elden Ring and orchestrated the events of the game so that one of the Tarnished may arrive to the Lands Between and rebel against the Golden Order.

At the same time, numerous hints throughout the game tell us that the Erdtree might be some kind of alien planet eater:

1. The Elden Beast was sent by an outer space god named Greater Will through a meteor.
2. Some enemies and bosses in the game seem to have originated from the outer space, much like Bloodborne bosses--we are actually fighting against cosmic horrors (like Astels and Oracle Envoys). There is an unmistakable alien influence in the Lands Between.
3. We can see some kind of mass beneath the roots of smaller Erdtree saplings. At closer look these are human corpses--Erdtree saplings are feeding on mortals.
4. Names and characteristics of the Outer Gods in the game are similar to what we find in Bloodborne. One such example is the Formless Mother, worshiped by Mohg (In Bloodborne, there's a god named Formless Oedon). This is not to say that there is a connection between Bloodborne and Elden Ring, maybe it's just FromSoftware reusing the story elements from Bloodborne.
5. The Erdtree is able to harvest souls and store it for "reincarnation/rebirth" of the dead. This is how it can grant immortality to the inhabitants of the Lands Between.
6. From these hints we can speculate the following: The Erdtree may appear to be granting blessing and prosperity to the Lands Between, but its true purpose is to completely devour the planet and its denizens, body and soul. This is a time-consuming process (trees need to grow first :D), so in order to lower the guard of the inhabitants, the Elden Ring grants superficial blessing such as incantations, reincarnation, longevity, and abundance until the Erdtree(s) can consume everything in the Lands Between. In short, the "Order" that the Elden Ring promises is nothing more than a deception that masks the true goal of the Erdtree and the Greater Will: eating the planet.
==========

[The One True Git]

Originally posted by lacrimosa1206:

Radagon and Marika are one and the same being, but their selves are in conflict with each other. It is likely that Marika is the base form, and Radagon is the parasitic self that the Elden Beast (a manifestation of the Elden Ring acting on behalf of the Greater Will) planted within Marika to accomplish its mission in the Lands Between.

Marika's purpose is to destroy the Elden Ring and expel the Greater Will's influence from the world, while Radagon is a servant of the Elden Ring and is basically the Greater Will's slave. This is why Radagon's statue is always depicted with grid-like pattern behind his back--the thorns door blocking access to the Erdtree has the same grid-like/chessboard pattern, implying that it was Radagon who erected the thorn wall and blocked all access to the Erdtree in an effort to protect the Elden Ring from further destruction after Marika shattered it.

At this point it becomes necessary to ask "But what exactly is the Elden Ring?" --> Elden Ring is the concept of "Order" given form by the Greater Will, an outer deity of order. The Greater Will doesn't care for mortal lives, unlike Marika: it is only interested in bringing order to the universe and if mortals prove detrimental to this purpose, then it doesn't mind leaving them to rot and die. Marika wants to save these people, and for this purpose she destroyed the Elden Ring and orchestrated the events of the game so that one of the Tarnished may arrive to the Lands Between and rebel against the Golden Order.

At the same time, numerous hints throughout the game tell us that the Erdtree might be some kind of alien planet eater:

1. The Elden Beast was sent by an outer space god named Greater Will through a meteor.
2. Some enemies and bosses in the game seem to have originated from the outer space, much like Bloodborne bosses--we are actually fighting against cosmic horrors (like Astels and Oracle Envoys). There is an unmistakable alien influence in the Lands Between.
3. We can see some kind of mass beneath the roots of smaller Erdtree saplings. At closer look these are human corpses--Erdtree saplings are feeding on mortals.
4. Names and characteristics of the Outer Gods in the game are similar to what we find in Bloodborne. One such example is the Formless Mother, worshiped by Mohg (In Bloodborne, there's a god named Formless Oedon). This is not to say that there is a connection between Bloodborne and Elden Ring, maybe it's just FromSoftware reusing the story elements from Bloodborne.
5. The Erdtree is able to harvest souls and store it for "reincarnation/rebirth" of the dead. This is how it can grant immortality to the inhabitants of the Lands Between.
6. From these hints we can speculate the following: The Erdtree may appear to be granting blessing and prosperity to the Lands Between, but its true purpose is to completely devour the planet and its denizens, body and soul. This is a time-consuming process (trees need to grow first :D), so in order to lower the guard of the inhabitants, the Elden Ring grants superficial blessing such as incantations, reincarnation, longevity, and abundance until the Erdtree(s) can consume everything in the Lands Between. In short, the "Order" that the Elden Ring promises is nothing more than a deception that masks its true purpose.

==========

Why do I hear the THX soundbyte reading this jesus christ.

[fauxpas]

Might have been said already, but there are alot of Alchemical themes in Eldenn Ring's lore, and one of themes is that a perfect being is by nature a duality of both male and female.

So when she was raised to Godhood and became a divine being Radagon was created as her second half. ... Two minds, a shared body, and one intertwined soul.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Yeah it's kind of a weird plot twist. Plus we don't how she's even able to do it (like is it a natural ability or did the Greater Will give it to her?)

I'm sure the DLC will explain it though. It has to lol

[NonZero]

it's a bit cheap tbh but I don't think it ruins the mystery and it adds a devious side to Marika

[Citizen of Zozo]

Radagon being Marika is an alchemy thing. I've read about it, but I'm no expert. It's a sort of cosmic joining of masculinity and femininity into a unified being. A rebis. It has nothing to do with modern gender ideology. The ancient alchemists believed that people having sex produced new life because it was a divine joining (though temporary). They believed only when joined together could mortal man and women reclaim their original holy/perfect state of existence. Before Adam & Eve fell from grace, before Eve was even separated from Adam. So, basically, superstitious pseudo-religious nonsense. Interesting though!
Of course, you could argue it was just some ancient nerds making up a really convoluted excuse to pick up women. That's always a strong possibility. "Hey baby. Wanna create a spark of divinity and achieve enlightenment?" I can believe they got laid that way. I can 100% believe it. Especially if alcohol was involved.

There's also some alchemists and scholars who believed the rebis was... uh... well, metaphorical? They didn't actually want to smush a man and woman together. Assigning masculine and feminine traits to chemicals sounds weird but they did it. Radagon represents sulfur, the 'red man'. Marika represents mercury, the 'white woman'. They are meant to be joined in the incredibly long and complicated process of creating the philosophers stone. The lapis. Eventually allowing for the creation of the drinkable gold of eternal youth.
Creating the lapis is about more than immortality though, it's about unmaking the false universe and existence we are presumably trapped in. Ascending to a higher state of cosmic being. Or whatever. It's all crazy person babble.

My guess is whoever wrote for Elden Ring read a bunch about historical alchemy and mysticism. They borrowed what they wanted from that as inspiration, and then at some undefinable point they broke away to do their own fictional thing on top of it.

[Wushiba]

Originally posted by Citizen of Zozo:

Radagon being Marika is an alchemy thing. I've read about it, but I'm no expert. It's a sort of cosmic joining of masculinity and femininity into a unified being. A rebis. It has nothing to do with modern gender ideology. The ancient alchemists believed that people having sex produced new life because it was a divine joining (though temporary). They believed only when joined together could mortal man and women reclaim their original holy/perfect state of existence. Before Adam & Eve fell from grace, before Eve was even separated from Adam. So, basically, superstitious pseudo-religious nonsense. Interesting though!
Of course, you could argue it was just some ancient nerds making up a really convoluted excuse to pick up women. That's always a strong possibility. "Hey baby. Wanna create a spark of divinity and achieve enlightenment?" I can believe they got laid that way. I can 100% believe it. Especially if alcohol was involved.

There's also some alchemists and scholars who believed the rebis was... uh... well, metaphorical? They didn't actually want to smush a man and woman together. Assigning masculine and feminine traits to chemicals sounds weird but they did it. Radagon represents sulfur, the 'red man'. Marika represents mercury, the 'white woman'. They are meant to be joined in the incredibly long and complicated process of creating the philosophers stone. The lapis. Eventually allowing for the creation of the drinkable gold of eternal youth.
Creating the lapis is about more than immortality though, it's about unmaking the false universe and existence we are presumably trapped in. Ascending to a higher state of cosmic being. Or whatever. It's all crazy person babble.

My guess is whoever wrote for Elden Ring read a bunch about historical alchemy and mysticism. They borrowed what they wanted from that as inspiration, and then at some undefinable point they broke away to do their own fictional thing on top of it.

I didn't know this, it was an interesting read and very informative, nicely written. Though to my knowledge none of this is present in the actual game and if that's true then this is just a good guess at best, until we get some kind of confirmation.

Therefore I wouldn't really say for certain that it has nothing to do with modern gender ideology. Of course the ingame/lore reason isn't going to be gender ideology for Marika to do this, but it probably played a part behind the courtain. For example not a single person were able to give a good reason why they went with Type A and Type B bodytypes instead of just regular Male and Female, at least I didn't hear any good arguement for it just calling people names if they mention it.

Nobody can deny that there is a certain appeal in the Type A and Type B bodytypes and the Marika is Radagon twist for the people who are into gender ideology. Its like a bonus to them and there's nothing wrong with that, but saying for certain that it has nothing to do with it is just wrong in my opinion. The marketing people aren't dumb, they know how to appeal to people and their tricks are so subtle that you can barely notice it, that is when they work the best. Just a little tweak in how things are worded and they already sold countless more copies.

[Ermitaum]

Originally posted by Benjunt:

The twist that "Radagon is Marika" is so dumb to me. I love the game and the lore, mostly. But I just dont GET this one. They're the same person but also two separate people who had children? It just seems like one of those cheap plot twists like "it was all a dream" in movies. Is it not?

My favorite: John Connor, who was older than Kyle Reese, sent him to the past to protect Sarah Connor, who then had sex with Kyle and got pregnant, and her son is... John Connor!!!!! Love it!