Why does Gideon turn on us?

[komra³³]

So this is the only thing I dont fully understand about the story. Anyone explain?

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by Facetable:

He doesn't want you to become Elden Lord. That's why he fights us

Now as to why that is though? Bit less clear. He states that Marika herself wishes to "see us struggle unto eternity"

My guess? I think that Gideon is following the Radagon part of Marika/Radagon, and is attributing Radagon's perspective to Marika.

Radagon is the "Leel hound of the Golden Order" and the embodiment of the Law of Regression. As such he will do anything to maintain the GO. However, when we defeat Maliketh, he states that "the Golden Order can no longer be repaired"

My (highly speculative) view of this:
The moment the rune of death becomes unbound is the moment at which it is no longer possible to restore the Golden Order (as stated by Maliketh). Because of this, Radagon (being the leal hound of the GO) chooses to do the next best thing: Never let anything replace the broken Golden Order, and let everyone "struggle unto eternity" . Gideon is able to determine Radagon's goal, but he wrongfully attributes it to Marika (who as others have stated, is likely opposed to the GO/Greater Will)

An interesting take, which begs the question: Did Gideon even know about Marika and Radagon being the same person before or after the Shattering?

We know this from the Lord's Divine Fortification incantation description:

"Gideon gained true knowledge after his long exchange with the Two Fingers - discovering all had been broken long ago; that the trembling fingers, bent with age, and the Erdtree itself, were no exception."

I bolded "true" because I think the Fingers told him everything after Marika shattered the ring. It's very interesting and I hope they touch on Marika's "will" that terrifies Gideon and possibly leads him to try and stop us.

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Marika is held prisoner and Gideon is ever plotting. What am I failing to consider?

The reason(s) why she was imprisoned in regards to the Tarnished, her intentions of having them eventually kill a god, and Gideon's seemingly complete 180 and outright telling us that a Tarnished can't become a lord after claiming that he intends to become one in the beginning of the game. You also ignored his armor description, which I pointed out repeatedly.

It looks like you're only looking at the surface level stuff, which isn't a bad thing at all. But the rest of your post is filled with so many holes that I really don't care to fill them up for you (and I already have in my previous posts if you actually read them). So I'd rather not continue the discussion with you here.

Okay, so Gideon doesn't want to be Elden Lord. He also says a Tarnished can't be Elden Lord, and a man cannot kill a god. Why does he get involved when you're about to go up against a god? Why get himself killed for no reason? Yeah, you're right, that makes a lot more sense!

Edit: I just remembered that you're the guy who answered that one thread about "Which demigod has the most loyal army/followers?" with Rykard....soooooooo yeah.

Yeah, they're continuing to fight against the Leyndell army for funsies. Come on, dude. Apply a bit of common sense.

Edit: think like a writer, not like a dumb reader. Characters have things like motives.

[MundM]

Well, first off, he never was on our side. He, like most characters in this game, has his own motives, and he just uses others so he doesn't has to get his hands dirty. He watches your every move and gains intelligence from it.
I guess that he fears of what choice you would make so he would rather see you die, than have the chance of you choosing a fate for the world he doesn't like.

[Facetable]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

An interesting take, which begs the question: Did Gideon know about Marika and Radagon being the same person before or after the Shattering?

We know this from the Lord's Divine Fortification incantation description:

"Gideon gained true knowledge after his long exchange with the Two Fingers - discovering all had been broken long ago; that the trembling fingers, bent with age, and the Erdtree itself, were no exception."

I bolded "true" because I think the Fingers told him everything after Marika shattered the ring. It's very interesting and I hope they touch on Marika's "will" that terrifies Gideon and possibly leads him to try and stop us.

Yeah I'm unsure as to whether or not he knows about Marika/Radagon being parts of the same being (I said wrongfully originally, but thinking about it he could just be deceiving us on the chance we don't know ourselves at that point).

Given the "true knowledge" part it sounds like he should have knowledge of the dual selves, but in that case it seems strange that he would continue to attribute the "struggle unto eternity" part to Marika

We admittedly don't fully know what Marika's endgame is after EB/GW is defeated. So its possible that he actually is describing what Marika intends for the world. But she'd also be ruining her own plan if she were to kill us at that point (We still hadn't killed EB, so she'd still be stuck under GW's influence) so what Gideon is doing doesn't seem to make sense (at least if he's acting on behalf of Marika)

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Okay, so Gideon doesn't want to be Elden Lord.

This is never definitely proven and is also directly contradicted by his own words when you kill him, as I've stated 10 times now.

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Why does he get involved when you're about to go up against a god?

Okay, now I think we're making some progress here. But that's only part of the question. The entire question should be: "We know Gideon is terrified after learning about Marika's true intentions (i.e. her "will"), so is that why he gets involved and tries to stop us when he originally said he wanted to become Elden Lord?"

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Yeah, they're continuing to fight against the Leyndell army for funsies. Come on, dude. Apply a bit of common sense.

Except, you know (or don't know, in your case), Rykard's followers are perhaps the most blatant in their disgust for their leader (as evidenced by multiple item descriptions and that one ghost in the Volcano Manor who tells you about the Serpent slayer sword). But don't let direct evidence interfere with your fan fic, which I know you're a big fan of.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by Facetable:

We admittedly don't fully know what Marika's endgame is after EB/GW is defeated.

That's the million rune question.

Part of me thinks that Marika wants to become the "ultimate" god/being who transcends every other demigod and outer god alike, or the premier source of truth and knowledge. She's shown to be quite cruel and manipulative in multiple item descriptions and events throughout the game, but the description of Gideon's chest armor is my main reasoning for that theory:

"Knowledge begins with the recognition of one's ignorance. The realization that the search for knowledge is unending. But when Gideon glimpsed into the will of Queen Marika, he shuddered in fear."

The last 2 sentences in that description are purposely arranged in a way that make it sound like Marika's goal is to somehow end the never-ending hunt for knowledge, possibly becoming the single and only source for it. That's how I read it, anyway.

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Okay, so Gideon doesn't want to be Elden Lord.

This is never definitely proven and is also directly contradicted by his own words when you kill him, as I've stated 10 times now.

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Originally posted by Pseudomonarchiadaiymo:

Because he wanted to be elden lord too, and obviously, there can’t be two elden lords, so he faces you just before you can become the elden lord

Besides being way too obvious and boring, this theory doesn't make sense either....

Ah, so you're just being the annoying eternal contrarian. Got it. Everything else is a bit moot then.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Ah, so you're just being the annoying eternal contrarian. Got it.

Can't believe I have to explain this, but something that's too obvious, boring, or doesn't make sense can still be right. This is especially true for Souls lore. I also said this in another post:
"The theory that Gideon is just butthurt because we're one step closer to becoming EL and he's not is within the realm of possibility," but whatever.

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Everything else is a bit moot then.

You're reading too much into it and he's not the obvious trope you think him to be.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Can't believe I have to explain this, but something that's too obvious, boring, or doesn't make sense can still be right. This is especially true for Souls lore.

Because every character in Souls/ER has to be an overly complex mess that makes no sense? Sure, Solaire was really just a frustrated blacksmith who was so incredibly jealous of Andre he went on a search for a forge so hot it shone like the sun. He just happened upon Gwyn by happy accident... no sorry, it has to be more complex. The Nameless King was best friends with the Dragon of Fate and plucked Solaire's scale and threw it into the Kiln so that he would have to face him. But Solaire was a clever boy and decided to put a bug on his head, which then drove him mad and prevented him from facing Gwyn. Yeah, that sounds about right.

Oh ♥♥♥♥ there's that legendary fan fic at work again! LOVE it!

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Because every character in Souls/ER has to be an overly complex mess that makes no sense? Sure, Solaire was really just a frustrated blacksmith who was so incredibly jealous of Andre he went on a search for a forge so hot it shone like the sun. He just happened upon Gwyn by happy accident... no sorry, it has to be more complex. The Nameless King was best friends with the Dragon of Fate and plucked Solaire's scale and threw it into the Kiln so that he would have to face him. But Solaire was a clever boy and decided to put a bug on his head, which then drove him mad and prevented him from facing Gwyn. Yeah, that sounds about right.

Oh ♥♥♥♥ there's that legendary fan fic at work again! LOVE it!

The point is, some characters are they way they portray themselves. Yes, there are holes, but saying "it doesn't make sense that Gideon wants to be EL" is a bit disingenuous. You can't really have it both ways.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Oh ♥♥♥♥ there's that legendary fan fic at work again! LOVE it!

The point is, some characters are they way they portray themselves. Yes, there are holes, but saying "it doesn't make sense that Gideon wants to be EL" is a bit disingenuous. You can't really have it both ways.

So the heart of the issue is that you think Gideon falls under a particular trope and that his words should be taken literally and at face value (i.e. he says he wants to become the EL, therefore he intends to become the EL).

Personally, I think it's much more nuanced than that and the best way to dissect these characters is to approach them in "both ways." Gideon himself is a great example as he first tells us that he intends to become lord, but then tries to stop us in the end - claiming that a Tarnished (which he, like us, is) can't do that. And THEN we discover almost immediately after killing him (if you bother to read his armor description) that he learned something so terrible about Marika that you can't help but wonder if it directly contributed to his decision to try and stop us.

Imo, that's not a coincidence; it's a purposeful order of events that's intended to encourage players to connect the dots.

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

The point is, some characters are they way they portray themselves. Yes, there are holes, but saying "it doesn't make sense that Gideon wants to be EL" is a bit disingenuous. You can't really have it both ways.

So the heart of the issue is that you think Gideon falls under a particular trope and that his words should be taken literally and at face value (i.e. he says he wants to become the EL, therefore he intends to become the EL).

Personally, I think it's much more nuanced than that and the best way to dissect these characters is to approach them in "both ways." Gideon himself is a great example as he first tells us that he intends to become lord, but then tries to stop us in the end - claiming that a Tarnished can't do that. And THEN we discover almost immediately after killing him (if you bother to read his armor description) that he learned something so terrible about Marika that you can't help but wonder if it directly contributed to his decision to try and stop us.

Imo, that's not a coincidence; it's a purposeful order of events that's intended to encourage players to connect the dots.

Originally posted by All-Knowing Helm:

Knowledge begins with the recognition of one's ignorance. The realization that the search for knowledge is unending. But when Gideon glimpsed into the will of Queen Marika, he shuddered in fear.

At the end that should not be.

Soooooo, he could have saw his own death, at the hands of us. Doesn't rule out him wanting to be, and working toward, being Elden Lord. Again, saying "it no make a da sense"... disingenuous.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

\
Soooooo, he could have saw his own death, at the hands of us. Doesn't rule out him wanting to be, and working toward, being Elden Lord. Again, saying "it no make a da sense"... disingenuous.

Gotta say: This is an incredible ass-pull. How the hell did you come up with him seeing his own death? Not that it would even matter to him since, you know, Gideon is already dead in the game's intro before he's resurrected.

And you didn't really analyze that description you posted at all, specifically this part:

"Knowledge begins with the recognition of one's ignorance. The realization that the search for knowledge is unending. But when Gideon glimpsed into the will of Queen Marika, he shuddered in fear."

There's a likely reason why that 3rd sentence follows the 2nd one. But jfc I'm tired of repeating and explaining myself. I'm calling it a night and look forward to some more sick fan fic from you. Peace out.

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

\
Soooooo, he could have saw his own death, at the hands of us. Doesn't rule out him wanting to be, and working toward, being Elden Lord. Again, saying "it no make a da sense"... disingenuous.

Gotta say: This is an incredible ass-pull. How the hell did you come up with him seeing his own death? Not that it would even matter to him since, you know, Gideon is already dead in the game's intro before he's resurrected.

And you didn't really analyze that description you posted at all, specifically this part:

"Knowledge begins with the recognition of one's ignorance. The realization that the search for knowledge is unending. But when Gideon glimpsed into the will of Queen Marika, he shuddered in fear."

There's a likely reason why that 3rd sentence follows the 2nd one. But jfc I'm tired of repeating and explaining myself. I'm calling it a night and look forward to some more sick fan fic from you. Peace out.

It's a vague description, but by all means, analyze it for a few more months. I'm sure the answer will present itself. Also, you said my fanfic should be illegal. I'm detecting an incongruity here. It may very well be due to the disingenuity.

[brody]

He is a typical conservative boomer who doesn't want change anything but only does increase his influence and strength even if world is collapsed and newcomers struggle to change the distortion.