[Lore/Spoilers]Frenzy Flame source

[Facetable]

So idea regarding where the frenzy flame actually comes from: The Sun

We know that the Seat of the Sun was power at one point, but that age has long since past (Sun Realm Shield). Instead the sun is now "drained of its color" (implies it originally had color at some point) and it is the star of soulless demigods when eclipsed due to Destined Death being disrupted(Eclipse Crest Greatshield)

In the Frenzy Flame questline, Hyetta states that "what was borrowed must be returned" and in the ending we see that everything burned by the frenzy flame flows into the sky to form a giant yellow object (possibly a sun though notably dark near its center - maybe eclipsed sun?). This seems to imply that this is the true form of the frenzy flame

This also seems to resemble the body/soul duality that this game has with different characters (Ranni is dead in body but alive in soul, Godwyn is dead in soul but alive in body) From this perspective, I see the Frenzy Flame as the sun's soul, though I'm less certain about what the actual sun is. Maybe Destined Death is the sun body? (hence why its eclipsed state benefits soulless demigods)


Thoughts?

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

It's an interesting description because the only soulless demigod we know of is Godwyn after he got bodied super hard by the Black Knives. The description states that apparently there are others.

Originally posted by Lhutel the Headless description:

...
Spirit of a headless knight who leads the mausoleum soldiers.
...
Lhutel sacrificed her life so that in Death she could continue to protect a soulless demigod until their revival, earning her the hero's honor of Erdtree Burial.

I think it's safe to assume that all the headless bodies lying in the walking mausoleums are soulless demigods.

I see. So what does that mean? Did other demigods before Godwyn have their souls die, too? Then that would mean something like this happened before.

[John Titor]

Originally posted by Facetable:

...If the whole point of that ending is "what was borrowed must be returned", then it seems like it makes sense to say the frenzy flame is connected to the sun somehow.

Originally posted by Hyetta:

Thank... thank you... I have touched them. The words of the Three Fingers. As your maiden, allow me to divine them. All that there is came from the One Great. Then came fractures, and births, and souls. But the Greater Will made a mistake. Torment, despair, affliction... every sin, every curse. Every one, born of the mistake. And so, what was borrowed must be returned. Melt it all away, with the yellow chaos flame. Until all is One again.

"...what was borrowed..." is referring to the "...fractures, and births, and souls." The endgame for Shabriri and the Frenzied Flame is to return everything back to the beginning, "...until all is One again."

[John Titor]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

I think it's safe to assume that all the headless bodies lying in the walking mausoleums are soulless demigods.

I see. So what does that mean? Did other demigods before Godwyn have their souls die, too? Then that would mean something like this happened before.

It's hard to say since there's no info about it. None of them are named or even mentioned outside anything related to the mausoleums. I was thinking about it earlier and it's plausible they might have been demigods who lived before the Elden Beast came, and probably died sometime after. That's the only explanation I personally can think of that would allow them to be unrelated to the current demigods (as none of them are specifically identified). Like, Ranni isn't crying on about her long lost uncle Godwinnebago who we never meet in the game. Your guess is as good as mine though.

Edit: well I ♥♥♥♥♥♥ that up. Not like I was trying to hide it anyway, but still.

[Facetable]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Let me put it like this...

When you talk about life in the Lands Between, you're talking about the Erdtree. It used to be the Crucible, then the Elden Beast fell from the sky and infested the Crucible, which became the Erdtree. All living things come from, and return to, the Erdtree. Now, if you look at the the Erdtree, what's the first thing you'd say? I know what I would say. "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥! That's a bright ass tree!"

The symbol of the eclispe might as well be a picture of a tree being eclipsed, but it seems to me that would be a hard thing to portray visually. In all of the Frenzied Flame lore I've combed through, there's no connection to the sun. If anything, it's more akin to atrophy and the cold death of the universe. The flame consumes everything until nothing is left.

The Erdtree is the most visually prominent thing when we start the game and yes the Crucible is the source of life where it was all mixed together...

...and yes I would probably say something along the lines of that

That still doesn't mean that all of the symbology in the game is going to be based around a tree (See deathbirds, fire giants, pretty much anything that does magic damage, etc...)

There's a shield with sun iconography that says the Seat of the Sun (a phrase never used in DS as far as I know) used to be powerful but isn't anymore. Hyetta says that we're returning what was borrowed when we do the frenzy flame route. At the end of the frenzy flame route everything that gets burned flows up into a giant ball that looks like a sun.

Am I reading too much into this? Yeah probably, but I'm still not seeing anything that shuts down those connections

I'm also not going to throw out everything described by said sun shield just because a previous game had sunbro when the sun has different functions in ER than DS as described by the Eclipse stuff. I'm sure that they could've found another symbol for communicating soullessness and another way to add a day/night cycle if they were worried about sending the wrong message about the sun's importance (maybe like a shadowtree? deathtree? edgetree? Also I think they kinda did that with the Helphen Steeple)

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by Facetable:

...snip...

I've said this many times, and I'll say it again. You're free to believe and interpret however you wish. Personally, I like to go with what the game gives me. Nothing related to the Frenzied Flame gives any kind of connection to the sun. Could they have meant there to be a connection? Maybe. Possibly. Why make it soooo obscure as to never mention it though? Anyway, that's just my two scents. [sic]