Is Malenia the worst Fromsoft boss?

[Tiny Messiah]

That was miserable. I can't think of any other fights I had that much trouble and that little fun

[Coin]

Messaggio originale di Senki:

No, she quite literally dashes through the hit that is supposed to stagger her. It's a mechanic both her and lady maria have to not make the fight too easy by being perma staggered, so they forcefully get out of stagger combos if you hit them too much.

You dare bring lady Maria into this. Sacrilege.

[Senki]

Messaggio originale di Coin:

Messaggio originale di Senki:

No, she quite literally dashes through the hit that is supposed to stagger her. It's a mechanic both her and lady maria have to not make the fight too easy by being perma staggered, so they forcefully get out of stagger combos if you hit them too much.

You dare bring lady Maria into this. Sacrilege.

It has to happen, people need to understand that what they call ''unfair'' has been a thing since Bloodborne. Maybe when they realize that a game they loved has the same mechanics it will make them realize that not the game is the problem.

Or maybe they'll just double down and call the entire franchise unfair.

[vamirez]

Messaggio originale di Senki:

Messaggio originale di Coin:

You dare bring lady Maria into this. Sacrilege.

It has to happen, people need to understand that what they call ''unfair'' has been a thing since Bloodborne. Maybe when they realize that a game they loved has the same mechanics it will make them realize that not the game is the problem.

Or maybe they'll just double down and call the entire franchise unfair.

As I tried to point out, they could make the argument that basically any game is unfair. It is normal to have enemies with much more HP than the player, higher damage, unlimited stamina (in games with stamina) etc. This idea of "fairness" is an illusion. "not being fair" is a fundamental principle of creating challenge.

[Senki]

Messaggio originale di vamirez:

Messaggio originale di Senki:

It has to happen, people need to understand that what they call ''unfair'' has been a thing since Bloodborne. Maybe when they realize that a game they loved has the same mechanics it will make them realize that not the game is the problem.

Or maybe they'll just double down and call the entire franchise unfair.

As I tried to point out, they could make the argument that basically any game is unfair. It is normal to have enemies with much more HP than the player, higher damage, unlimited stamina (in games with stamina) etc. This idea of "fairness" is an illusion. It's a fundamental principle of creating challenge.

I could even make the argument that the game is unfair to the bosses. I get like 13 pots that heal me, spammable i-frames and infinite attempts even if I die? How is that fair fromsoft??

[vamirez]

Messaggio originale di Senki:

Messaggio originale di vamirez:

As I tried to point out, they could make the argument that basically any game is unfair. It is normal to have enemies with much more HP than the player, higher damage, unlimited stamina (in games with stamina) etc. This idea of "fairness" is an illusion. It's a fundamental principle of creating challenge.

I could even make the argument that the game is unfair to the bosses. I get like 13 pots that heal me, spammable i-frames and infinite attempts even if I die? How is that fair fromsoft??

It's not - and this is also a common thing, especially in RPGs, that players and NPCs/enemies have separate stats and abilities. The aim is to create an interesting challenge for the players to beat, not easy, not impossible. In pen and paper games, for example, players need to trust the referee instead of trying to rules-check them and say "hey, I cannot do this, why can the dragon do it??".

[CourtesyFlush09]

Messaggio originale di Senki:

No, she quite literally dashes through the hit that is supposed to stagger her. It's a mechanic both her and lady maria have to not make the fight too easy by being perma staggered, so they forcefully get out of stagger combos if you hit them too much.

Sister friede's stagger animation is not short enough to get out of attacks as fast as a dagger's normally. If it was truly her entire stagger animation she would be stuck there until the player consumes his entire stamina bar.

Malenia is nothing new.

You are moving the goal posts yet again.

Your video at 3:13 does not show that Friede "quite literally dashes through the hit that is supposed to stagger her." Slow down the playback speed to 0.25 for a better look. She takes 2 consecutive hits from the player. After the second hit, your character triggers a bleed burst immediately after landing the 3rd hit, which THEN causes her to execute her dash. That dash move is a built-in failsafe so that she, along with other similar human-sized bosses throughout the series, aren't perma-staggered to death, like you said. It is actually a sensible mechanic.

However, that mechanic doesn't apply to Malenia because she can trigger her dodges and stagger cancels ANY TIME she wants, regardless of how many times you hit her beforehand.

I say you're moving the goal posts not to insult you, but to show you that instead of acknowledging Malenia's overtuned stagger cancelling and other rule-breaking mechanics, you instead decided to talk about this dash move that triggers so bosses aren't perma-staggered to death (which is actually a good thing).

They are two entirely different things. But anyway, I've made my point and am tired of this thread and shall take my leave. I'd love to read any concluding words you have, though.

[Ermitaum]

Messaggio originale di BFGesus:

Messaggio originale di Tiny Messiah:

That was miserable. I can't think of any other fights I had that much trouble and that little fun

Let me introduce you to the bed of chaos...

HAHAHAHA... HA... * starts crying *

[Senki]

Messaggio originale di CourtesyFlush90:

Messaggio originale di Senki:

No, she quite literally dashes through the hit that is supposed to stagger her. It's a mechanic both her and lady maria have to not make the fight too easy by being perma staggered, so they forcefully get out of stagger combos if you hit them too much.

Sister friede's stagger animation is not short enough to get out of attacks as fast as a dagger's normally. If it was truly her entire stagger animation she would be stuck there until the player consumes his entire stamina bar.

Malenia is nothing new.

You are moving the goal posts yet again.

Your video at 3:13 does not show that Friede "quite literally dashes through the hit that is supposed to stagger her." Slow down the playback speed to 0.25 for a better look. She takes 2 consecutive hits from the player. After the second hit, your character triggers a bleed burst immediately after landing the 3rd hit, which THEN causes her to execute her dash. That dash move is a built-in failsafe so that she, along with other similar human-sized bosses throughout the series, aren't perma-staggered to death, like you said. It is actually a sensible mechanic.

However, that mechanic doesn't apply to Malenia because she can trigger her dodges and stagger cancels ANY TIME she wants, regardless of how many times you hit her beforehand.

I say you're moving the goal posts not to insult you, but to show you that instead of acknowledging Malenia's overtuned stagger cancelling and other rule-breaking mechanics, you instead decided to talk about this dash move that triggers so bosses aren't perma-staggered to death (which is actually a good thing).

They are two entirely different things. But anyway, I've made my point and am tired of this thread and shall take my leave. I'd love to read any concluding words you have, though.

''stagger canceling is only good when I say so''

Alright buddy.

Sister friede's cancel has the same effect as Malenia's. Doesn't matter if one happens during a combo or at the start of one. They both happen when you're commited to attacks.

I'm not moving any goal posts, you're just unable to understand how flawed your position is.

It all started from ''malenia is completely different to other bosses'' and now we're at a ridiculous point of '' the exact same mechanic that malenia has is on previous bosses but it happens at a different time so it's ok''. The backpedaling is funny.

[Sonnenbank]

Messaggio originale di Casval Zem Daikun:

Messaggio originale di Sonnenbank:

@CourtesyFlush90 plz stop it..... she is unfair because she doesnt not follow some rules that
some people on the internet decided are the rules....
Fromsoft decides the rules
and they made Malenia
so she is following the rules

By this logic, nothing could ever be "unfair".
X decides the rules and X made Y, therefore Y is fair.

what in the literal ♥♥♥♥

perfect example of a guy who only reads what he wants to read.

I said you cant decide whats fair or unfair in a game based on if other bosses used the same behaviour before.... there are no "rules" except the ones the devs decide for bosses to have.
----
----------------------------------------
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....you have to decide fairness by the fact if a player is given decent methods to cope with the attacks.....!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I even
gave an example of what i mean by this.

close range waterfowl itself would be unfair since the 2 methods to evade which i demonstrated in 2 videos i posted here are probably too hard for the average guy to learn. It took me like 4h of specifically practice this move before i could do both.
I know better players will learn it faster but i also think bad players will never be able to do it.
So this could be considerd unfair

BUT !
The game gives you tools so you dont have to learn that technique

1.) BHStepp
2.) bait from far range with a spell
3.) use Shield with barricade shield as
4.) use some spirit ash which makes you basically skip the bossfight for the most part....

So since there are 3 methods to deal with it that are all pretty easy
The move is not unfair

if you refuse to use one of these 3 methods its your fault not the games fault
and you always have the 4th method of using Tiche and just destroy malenia


But you just pick the first part , ignore the important second part and make a very stupid statement while also calling other people stupid in a follow up post.

what a performance by you.
impressive

[GoreTiger]

She's a boring boss that people hype up because she's a red haired valk that ends up being one of the only woman that purposely gets naked in a elden ring player's life.

On a more serious note, she really is a boring boss. Her whole routine is simply spamming attacks to use her health regen. There is no intricate complex break down about her, and once you learn her weakness she gets flatlined pretty hard by it and doesn't adapt very well.

Also, Radahn would of beat her.

[Casval Zem Daikun]

Messaggio originale di Sonnenbank:

perfect example of a guy who only reads what he wants to read.

If it bothers you this much to get called out, you should probably watch what you post.

Messaggio originale di Sonnenbank:

I said you cant decide whats fair or unfair in a game based on if other bosses used the same behaviour before.... there are no "rules" except the ones the devs decide for bosses to have.

I believe people were arguing that the boss doesn't follow the established rules that the other 70 bosses use. Or even the bosses in previous games.
I dunno, I'm not the one making the argument but here we are.

Messaggio originale di Sonnenbank:

BUT !
The game gives you tools so you dont have to learn that technique

1.) BHStepp
2.) bait from far range with a spell
3.) use Shield with barricade shield as
4.) use some spirit ash which makes you basically skip the bossfight for the most part....

So since there are 3 methods to deal with it that are all pretty easy
The move is not unfair

Ah, yes, the infamous "You can beat it therefore it's fair" argument. Creative and original.
I'm not sure if you've ever watched content for these games or talked to other actual people who play these games but people typically plan their build with themes in mind. For example, when I plan out, and play, my 2h UGS strength build, I don't make plans to dump some points into int and upgrade a staff for "that boss".

Which brings me to my actual point here: Souls bosses have always, arguably, been punishing but fair with preventable and predictable damage while also respecting build diversity.

My favorite build in the souls series has always been bow/crossbow builds. I've done all 3 games with bow builds and I honestly can't think of a single boss that was impossible with a bow. I also can't think of any boss where I was forced to divert away from the theme of the build in order to beat them.
Sure, these options can be helpful to give me an edge against a boss but they shouldn't be required to beat the boss. However, time and time again, the only excuse anyone can give for why this boss is "fair" is durr use bleed, hurr use frost, muh bloodhound, muh ash of war.

I'm not even sure you know who you're responding to, either. Other people have been pointing out her glaring inconsistencies, not me.

Messaggio originale di Sonnenbank:

if you refuse to use one of these 3 methods its your fault not the games fault
and you always have the 4th method of using Tiche and just destroy malenia

Or maybe we should go back to designing boss fights that respect build diversity.

Messaggio originale di Sonnenbank:

But you just pick the first part , ignore the important second part and make a very stupid statement while also calling other people stupid in a follow up post.

what a performance by you.
impressive

I actually didn't pick any part. I just pointed out stupid logic and it seems like you projected someone else's claims on me. I'd say this is an impressive performance but it doesn't look like you even made it to the stage before stumbling. I'm sure casting couch will take you, however.

[Sonnenbank]

My logic was always that fairness should be based on the methods a player gets to deal with bosses.

Fairness should not be based on some rules that some players think are the rules

I never said fairness is based on the rules of Fromsoft and therfore everything is fair.
So you completely made that up and your argument was just stupid

I even explained with the Twin Prince Example why that rules thingy you guys base your fairnes opinion on doesnt work.

1. Twin Princess was the first boss to directly input read on healing.
So they didnt follow the rules of DS3 and therefore unfair

2. But if a boss does the same thing in ER its fair now since its nothing new and therefore is fair according to some rules ?

Its the same damn action and to determine if its fair we need to see how a player can deal with it and not if it follows some rules guys made up in their head based on if previous enemies did the same thing >_<

[MULTIPASS]

Messaggio originale di Casval Zem Daikun:

For example, when I plan out, and play, my 2h UGS strength build, I don't make plans to dump some points into int and upgrade a staff for "that boss".

So don't? You can beat Malenia with a pure str UGS build.

Messaggio originale di Casval Zem Daikun:

My favorite build in the souls series has always been bow/crossbow builds. I've done all 3 games with bow builds and I honestly can't think of a single boss that was impossible with a bow. I also can't think of any boss where I was forced to divert away from the theme of the build in order to beat them.

You're not forced to change your bow build, I have a save at Malenia with a bow build and it's 100% viable.

All this talk about "she's impossible with x build" or "you have to use x meta strategy" is just a bunch of BS. Salty, angry people making a bunch of excuses instead of just getting good.

Bottom line, her basic melee attacks are easy to deal with and there are a variety of ways to address waterfowl dance including simply dodging it. It isn't easy to do, but this is Souls why are you expecting the uber optional endgame boss to be easy?

[Krazy Wallet]

It's exceptionally hard, but Malenia is possible with bow/crossbow only builds. However, I wouldn't recommend it for individuals who wish to maintain their sanity. I would also say that using one niche style is a poor metric of fairness. Souls games have never focused on bows as a primary weapon, but you can make it work. Same with Elden Ring. The fact that bows are exceptionally hard with Malenia really doesn't represent unfairness, however. If it was nearly impossible to beat Malenia with one of the pillars of the game (dex, str, int, faith, or arcane), that would give us something to discuss. Bows only is really considered a challenge run.

That being said, please note that none of the core builds is impossible for Malenia. That doesn't mean she isn't stronger and weaker to certain types. These bosses do counter particular weapons and strategies.

[patrol]

I think the only trash thing about the fight is waterfoul dance as it's a pass or fail mechanic, whether you can or cannot dodge it for whatever reason