Mohgwyn Trident OP i guess?

[Dollmaker]

Ok seriously, why people find it so hard to get away from this AOW? ._.

Its an obvious and slow animation, sure in a enclosed area it can be really strong, but when you have more than enough room to easily get away from it... yeah.

[Dollmaker]

Senki님이 먼저 게시:

Dollmaker님이 먼저 게시:

Bleed for example, a nerf to it wouldnt leave it useless cause DEAR GOD this thing is broken in PvE, ive often do endgame bosses, like Maliketh, and every single time someone brings Powerstance Bleed whatever, the fight lasts next to nothing.

The problem with that is that not every bleed weapon is a curved sword or twinblade.

If you nerf an entire status then the weapons that are slow like scythes will be even worse because of it despite being balanced right now.

Nerfs need to be precise to not mess with things that are already balanced/underpowered that don't deserve it.

It would mainly be to how fast it can be applied when using powerstanced attacks.

1H and 2H would remain the same.

Also, some weapons do need buffs in general, like daggers, small hammers and axes, flails, etc.

[Dollmaker]

An Irate Walrus님이 먼저 게시:

Dollmaker님이 먼저 게시:

I mean, im hoping they dont.

So far the nerfs have been pretty reasonable and did solved the issues for the most part.

Bleed for example, a nerf to it wouldnt leave it useless cause DEAR GOD this thing is broken in PvE, ive often do endgame bosses, like Maliketh, and every single time someone brings Powerstance Bleed whatever, the fight lasts next to nothing.

Every single time someone employs a strategy that took time, effort, and preparation to deploy, it works well.

I am dumbfounded.

Too well...

[Frost]

Nah, i don't think it's OP.

It's strong for sure, thrust weapons in general are good in this game, combined with bleed and the situational weapon skill makes it a good weapon.

There are far better alteratives though if we're solely looking at the bleed part, like cross naginatas with seppuku, curved swords etc.

There are better thrust weapons too, like Vyke's spear.

So, the only thing this weapon has going for it is the weapon skill. Nerf that and the weapon pretty much becomes obsolete and weak. It is situational and really only good in tight areas where your enemy can't escape it.

[Dollmaker]

Frost님이 먼저 게시:

Nah, i don't think it's OP.

It's strong for sure, thrust weapons in general are good in this game, combined with bleed and the situational weapon skill makes it a good weapon.

There are far better alteratives though if we're solely looking at the bleed part, like cross naginatas with seppuku, curved swords etc.

There are better thrust weapons too, like Vyke's spear.

So, the only thing this weapon has going for it is the weapon skill. Nerf that and the weapon pretty much becomes obsolete and weak. It is situational and really only good in tight areas where your enemy can't escape it.

Yeah i know, i was just wondering how people have such a hard time getting away from it.

[Frost]

Dollmaker님이 먼저 게시:

Frost님이 먼저 게시:

Nah, i don't think it's OP.

It's strong for sure, thrust weapons in general are good in this game, combined with bleed and the situational weapon skill makes it a good weapon.

There are far better alteratives though if we're solely looking at the bleed part, like cross naginatas with seppuku, curved swords etc.

There are better thrust weapons too, like Vyke's spear.

So, the only thing this weapon has going for it is the weapon skill. Nerf that and the weapon pretty much becomes obsolete and weak. It is situational and really only good in tight areas where your enemy can't escape it.

Yeah i know, i was just wondering how people have such a hard time getting away from it.

I don't think it's that people have a hard time getting away from it, it's more like they're too deep with not enough time to get out, combined with panic rolls.

If you're in too deep, the best thing you can do provided you have the HP is to attack and interrupt the cast, most people don't do this and default to spam rolling, which gets them roll caught and subsequently bled out.

Some just get caught unawares, this thing can go through terrain. I imagine many Liurnia AFKers can attest to that, lol.

[An Irate Walrus]

Dollmaker님이 먼저 게시:

An Irate Walrus님이 먼저 게시:

Every single time someone employs a strategy that took time, effort, and preparation to deploy, it works well.

I am dumbfounded.

Too well...

Let's say we are field officers on opposing sides of a military conflict. Your intelligence service leads you to believe that I have only poorly-equipped infantry on defense, so you mass armor in preparation for an attack, intending to overrun my infantry with an armored charge.

*My* intelligence service notes the gathering of armor, and a gap in *your* intelligence means they failed to account for the large complement of artillery I have mounted behind my primary skirmish lines.

I have my observers site in on your massed armor, contact logistics to bring up extra shells, and my artillery reduces that motor-pool of mobile weaponry to smoldering bits.

Complaining about bleed builds is like that, only with no actual death, suffering, or literally anything that should bother you in any way, shape, or form.

[cridus]

An Irate Walrus님이 먼저 게시:

Every single time someone employs a strategy that took time, effort, and preparation to deploy, it works well.

I am dumbfounded.

*Take a naginata*
*Take that one other bleed spear*
*Apply seppuku*

Wow took an immense amount of time.

[An Irate Walrus]

cridus님이 먼저 게시:

An Irate Walrus님이 먼저 게시:

Every single time someone employs a strategy that took time, effort, and preparation to deploy, it works well.

I am dumbfounded.

*Take a naginata*
*Take that one other bleed spear*
*Apply seppuku*

Wow took an immense amount of time.

*locate and acquire weapons
*locate and apply AOW
*grind runes for appropriate stats to maximize effectiveness of weapons and bleed proc/damage

Wow. Oversimplifying a process to support snark ends up leaving some important stuff out.

Weird.

[cridus]

An Irate Walrus님이 먼저 게시:

*locate and acquire weapons
*locate and apply AOW
*grind runes for appropriate stats to maximize effectiveness of weapons and bleed proc/damage

Wow. Oversimplifying a process to support snark ends up leaving some important stuff out.

Weird.

I just thought I didn't need to say explicitly how pretty much any other non-OP setup requires much more work.
A normal build, that will perform way worse in average, usually needs much more stuff. Spells, multiple weapons, more than a single AoW, strategies, more min-maxing.
With double-bleed stuff you only need two weapons and an AoW, and then you run and press L1 repeatedly.
It will work very well even without seppuku, actually.

Maybe it won't work well in duels, but guess what? The great majority of people who use these setups are in groups... And 1 out of more or less 3 groups of people you invade will have at least one (usually password-summoned) phantom with double naginatas or double curved swords. Yesterday I invaded a group that had 2 double curved swords and one double naginatas XD

Now look at this trend about things that are complained about (not in order of importance):

- Fingerprint shield
- UGS crouch pokes
- double bleed curved swords (with seppuku or not)
- double bleed spears (with seppuku or not)
- seppuku in general
- double vyke's
- maybe double Trina's swords

See? The trend is: powerstanced status-inflicting stuff with fast attacks, with bleed, madness or sleep is considered OP.
The fingerprint shield is considered too hard to counter by many, but it's not complained about nearly as much as the other stuff.
UGS crouch pokes are too fast for how strong they are, with pretty much no reliable counter (especially if RKR is used on the sword).
Seppuku makes applying bleed way too easy, making things only worse.

So, the main thing left that's considered OP is "powerstanced bleed/madness/sleep fast attacks".
A coincidence? Could it be, that they're actually unbalanced, like also other stuff was before it got fixed? Is it such an inconceivable possibility?
Come on...


P.S. I forgot to mention that 99% of people who use double naginatas, double vyke's or double Trina's get at least one dropped by someone else, so the argument of the build requiring work barely stands, for these.
I barely ever see anyone using one naginata and one of that other bleed spear dropped by mobs. Which says a lot.