Thrusting Weapons and their issues.

[Dollmaker]

This applies to all of them, even thrust attacks like Colossal Poke.

Theres just two problems, Tracking and Hitbox Width.

Its too forgiving, in past games, these two things were their main weakness, really good for range and spacing, but not that good against opponents that danced around you.

But in ER, the tracking got considerably better, and the hitbox width is too big, pretty much removing these weaknesses.

This even shows in PvP, with these types of weapons being arguably the most prevalent, specially Heavy Thrusting Swords.

So, yeah, thats pretty much the problem with them.

[NineChameleon]

Do you know their other problem? No decent jumping attack. (for rapiers at least)

But you were listing things that make them overpowered in your estimation right?

Also to add to this, some people actually have posted pictures on the Wiki's of the hitboxes of these weapons and they're pretty much identical to straight swords when it comes to width. The difference is they extend further forwards... because they're thrusting swords.

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/straight-swords-weapon-range-data-elden-ring-wiki-guide-600px.jpg

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/thrusting-swords-weapon-range-data-elden-ring-wiki-guide-600px.jpg

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by NineChameleon:

Do you know their other problem? No decent jumping attack. (for rapiers at least)

But you were listing things that make them overpowered in your estimation right?

Is the jumping attack that bad? ive used them and it was ok.

[NineChameleon]

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

Originally posted by NineChameleon:

Do you know their other problem? No decent jumping attack. (for rapiers at least)

But you were listing things that make them overpowered in your estimation right?

Is the jumping attack that bad? ive used them and it was ok.

The hitbox on rapiers is infront of you rather than below. And it comes with a weird forward momentum that can often lead to you going right over an enemy with it if you're not careful. It's an issue shared by the scythe class of weapons. Where the jumping attack hits in front rather than below.

Now granted those are okay if the boss is large. But if the boss is more human sized or moves a lot, or is crouching then it's significantly harder to hit than most of the other jumping attacks in the game from my experience.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by NineChameleon:

Also to add to this, some people actually have posted pictures on the Wiki's of the hitboxes of these weapons and they're pretty much identical to straight swords when it comes to width. The difference is they extend further forwards... because they're thrusting swords.

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/straight-swords-weapon-range-data-elden-ring-wiki-guide-600px.jpg

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/thrusting-swords-weapon-range-data-elden-ring-wiki-guide-600px.jpg

Even if they're similar, the problem is that one is a thrust attack, which usually are also faster than a swing attack, which is the main attack of Straight Swords.

[NineChameleon]

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

Originally posted by NineChameleon:

Also to add to this, some people actually have posted pictures on the Wiki's of the hitboxes of these weapons and they're pretty much identical to straight swords when it comes to width. The difference is they extend further forwards... because they're thrusting swords.

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/straight-swords-weapon-range-data-elden-ring-wiki-guide-600px.jpg

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/thrusting-swords-weapon-range-data-elden-ring-wiki-guide-600px.jpg

Even if they're similar, the problem is that one is a thrust attack, which usually are also faster than a swing attack, which is the main attack of Straight Swords.

I mean.... I'm not sure i've ever felt that straight sword swings are slower than rapier thrusts. Especially not the heavy rapiers that you're talking about. Epee and the Bloody Helice are just... incredibly slow with their windup. To the point that in pve it causes the weapon class to suffer if you're used to faster weapons.

The light thrusting swords I'll grant you, the tradeoff is usually that they hit for less than other weapons. But with the power of status in this game that mostly doesn't matter since the invader meta is statuses at this point. Or one shot builds.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by NineChameleon:

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

Even if they're similar, the problem is that one is a thrust attack, which usually are also faster than a swing attack, which is the main attack of Straight Swords.

I mean.... I'm not sure i've ever felt that straight sword swings are slower than rapier thrusts. Especially not the heavy rapiers that you're talking about. Epee and the Bloody Helix are just... incredibly slow with their windup. To the point that in pve it causes the weapon class to suffer if you're used to faster weapons.

The light thrusting swords I'll grant you, the tradeoff is usually that they hit for less than other weapons. But with the power of status in this game that mostly doesn't matter since the invader meta is statuses at this point. Or one shot builds.

Well, how do i tell you that one of the more popular bleed builds involves dual Spears...

[NineChameleon]

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

Originally posted by NineChameleon:

I mean.... I'm not sure i've ever felt that straight sword swings are slower than rapier thrusts. Especially not the heavy rapiers that you're talking about. Epee and the Bloody Helix are just... incredibly slow with their windup. To the point that in pve it causes the weapon class to suffer if you're used to faster weapons.

The light thrusting swords I'll grant you, the tradeoff is usually that they hit for less than other weapons. But with the power of status in this game that mostly doesn't matter since the invader meta is statuses at this point. Or one shot builds.

Well, how do i tell you that one of the more popular bleed builds involves dual Spears...

yeah i've unfortunately seen it....
Spears are the weird middle ground that are also supposed to have the tradeoff of lower base damage. But again, statuses being how insane they are in ER kinda throws that out the window.
I think the problem is less with thrusting weapons as a whole and more with how you can take something like a thrusting weapon that is supposed to have these weaknesses and completely nullify them with status effects.

[NineChameleon]

Like dont get me wrong the "sprint attack with 2 spears" meta is absolutely stupid. It existed in Dark Souls 3 and it's appeared here too because it's such a good roll catch. But that's the main reason. It's because people instinctively roll backwards which spears can catch easily.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by NineChameleon:

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

Well, how do i tell you that one of the more popular bleed builds involves dual Spears...

yeah i've unfortunately seen it....
Spears are the weird middle ground that are also supposed to have the tradeoff of lower base damage. But again, statuses being how insane they are in ER kinda throws that out the window.
I think the problem is less with thrusting weapons as a whole and more with how you can take something like a thrusting weapon that is supposed to have these weaknesses and completely nullify them with status effects.

The tracking and hitbox issues still apply though tbh.

[NineChameleon]

Well again, the hitbox is the same size as other similar sized weapons. So I dont think you can point at the hitbox width as the issue. The length is again, because they are thrusting weapons travelling forwards. They aren't going to remove the last half foot of a hitbox.

The tracking on thrusting swords and spears has always been insanely good in fromsoft games simply because it's hitbox doesn't stretch in the horizontal like every other weapon class.
If the hypothetical nerf to thrusting weapons is the tracking being reduced then thrusting weapons could become un-viable as a whole in pve as well as pvp. Because hitting anything with them would be much harder. So that's not really a change they can make.

This thrusting weapon pvp meta is people exploiting a system that can't easily be changed. Which is unfortunate. But it's something you might have to just accept.

The one weakness you can exploit with them is that their hitbox also doesn't extend far vertically unlike some other weapons. So just jump right on over.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by NineChameleon:

Well again, the hitbox is the same size as other similar sized weapons. So I dont think you can point at the hitbox width as the issue. The length is again, because they are thrusting weapons travelling forwards. They aren't going to remove the last half foot of a hitbox.

The tracking on thrusting swords and spears has always been insanely good in fromsoft games simply because it's hitbox doesn't stretch in the horizontal like every other weapon class.
If the hypothetical nerf to thrusting weapons is the tracking being reduced then thrusting weapons could become un-viable as a whole in pve as well as pvp. Because hitting anything with them would be much harder. So that's not really a change they can make.

This thrusting weapon pvp meta is people exploiting a system that can't easily be changed. Which is unfortunate. But it's something you might have to just accept.

The one weakness you can exploit with them is that their hitbox also doesn't extend far vertically unlike some other weapons. So just jump right on over.

What i mean with Width its that it makes their attacks way too easy to land.

Other weapons are a swing, which usually dont have as much range, but cover more area, Thrust attacks are meant to be good with range, but not at area coverage, which is the sides.

They would still be viable, just not as dominant as they currently are, dont underestimate range.