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If you could explain why or what you are looking for others may be able to help you.
This is what I am getting at, need to buildup some status on top of normal dmg to be effective. Need like poison status for DoT or something like that to assist along your journey as a rogue...
Rogues can use daggers, but they can also use short swords/katana, throwing bladed weapons, use explosive tools, harmful chemicals, potentially some basic types of magic, utility tools/magic/skills, crossbow/bows, etc.
Having played the game at RL1 with +0 weapons I'm inclined to say if your definition is daggers aren't viable I'm going to have to completely disagree with you, much less so the other options mentioned which are certainly viable.
Daggers are faster hits with lighter dmg and if a +0 sword or other weapon can work than an upgraded weapon can absolutely work. You can also do things like use the ashes that boost next hit with the right buffs for high dmg (normally seen on heavy weapon builds for burst), force posture breaks and crits, back stabs, elemental buff on weapons which is bonus dmg... and favors fast lower hitting weapons, frostbite as well (cleanse via fire if you want), rot & poison to supplement DPS, and probably more with a bit of thinking.
False equivalence, really.
If someone can beat the game at lvl 1 with nothing but their bare fists then that means every weapon is viable. Which isn't untrue but doesn't make it true for the average person wanting to make a themed build.
I'm sure someone else out there has made a pure bow build viable but, for me, it was the most awful experience I've had in any of the souls games. "Someone can do it with less" is not an argument. Please stop this.
My point of my example was if I can do this with absolute barebone stats at RL1 with a +0 weapon, compared to a specifically upgraded dagger as I mentioned, then the damage is going to be much greater. This wasn't the same as saying compared to someone else also playing with virtually no HP, stamina, no armor, or other supporting stats. I provided an extreme and pointed out a heavily dialed back situation with a proper character and a leveled dagger can reasonably suffice.
For instance, a RL1 Wretch with a +0 Lordsworn's Straight Sword and no infusion has 124 AR. In contrast, a RL70 (60 Vig/29 Dex) Wretch in the Lakes with a +12 Misericorde (Keen) would have 209 AR before rings/buffs. Vastly more HP, 68%+ more AR (before optimization), massive crits, and when properly setup can better supply buffs and have better utility/armor/stamina/etc. It would only improve from there. If you wanted to hold off on so much Vigor for whatever reason you could go. This isn't mentioning better alternatives like Black Knife if going for non-crit damage, or looking at Great Knife for bleed/frostbite, etc. Having 1900 HP and actual AR makes this a normal build. In contrast, the core issue with a RL1 Wretch at +0 is actually surviving, not damage, at least until after the Capital hence the point of AR to begin with.
Here's an even more prime example:
RL70 Wretch (60 Vigor / 16 Str / 15 Dex / 2h wield) going strength build with +12 Heavy Uchigatana for 264 AR. Not much more is it?... In fact, if you went full stupid with same weapon and RL70 Wretch (25 Vigor / 51 Str / 15 Dex / 2h wield) squishy you would still have only 366 AR when not focusing on the bleed aspect (since this is about non-bleed options per OP's complaint).
None of this even recognizes daggers attack far faster and also benefit from bonus dmg via elemental buffs far more than other weapons that I had already mentioned prior.
Again, I query what exactly about my post was asking other people to run around with +0 daggers at RL1? Care to quote such a statement?
I never said otherwise, though this point isn't necessarily true with "normal", aka non-META borderline exploitive builds, as shown above.
In fact, a 60 Str +25 Heavy 2h Uchigatana will still only have 601 AR. A +25 Keen Misericorde with 60 Dex will have 375 AR but swings far faster, benefits more from buffs, and has a monstrous crit. A Black Knife over 470 AR with similar setup.
The main concern would be edge case bosses with high defense like Valiant Gargoyle but that requires testing to see if it is actually meaningfully weaker since the defensive impact diminishes as AR climbs compared to extremely low AR values.
Naturally though, dagger's aren't intended to perform in this game, or many others, quite on the same level as full sized weapons. The same argument, however, can be made even within a given weapon's class such as hammers, greatswords, etc. There will be noticeable gaps between some of the weaker options and the top tier options despite FROM usually trying to keep a given weapon class roughly balanced.
Ok.
I... don't understand. So the purpose of your example was to show that upgrades and stats matter? I mean, that was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ obvious but ok.
So you further go into this example to show that stats and upgrades do, indeed, matter. Can I get an essay on why the sky is blue too?
I get what you're saying but I don't get why you're saying it. "You'll have more <insert some stat here> than a RL1 run would!" is not the topic of discussion. Furthermore, this isn't a discussion about RL1 stats/tactics.
The guy just wants to make a themed build and, presumably, as an average player, finds it very lacking. Which I'd personally agree with from doing other themed builds. Sometimes the weapons just suck.
Ironically, no mention of weapon range/poise damage. Makes you wonder why people chose swords over daggers irl for general combat.
I'm still trying to quote a relevant point to the topic. So far we have:
1) Higher level characters have more stats than a RL1 build
2) Higher level characters with upgraded weapons have more AR than a RL1 build
No one would say this is wrong. I'm saying it's not relevant to the guy's point.
Regardless of this, you continue:
How is this relevant to "I wanted to make a rogue build and found it lacking"?
Congrats, a dagger will have <insert pros here> over <insert weapon here>. You're pushing this argument that no one cares about.
Throw in a shortbow and do some ranged attacking while waiting the 30 seconds for frost to wear off can work too if you're patient.
Heck, you can even throw in some night sorcery for the aesthetic and theme of a "dark arts rogue"
Shortbow with Fire Arrows to make Frost fade immediately, then switch back to Frost Dagger. :)
That being said, I'm also pretty disappointed that there aren't better Stealth mechanics in the game. I tried a Rogue/Assassin build my first play through and realized very quickly that daggers are just.. not so great compared to other weapons.
Not just that stats matter, but that the dagger damage isn't so incredibly low that it is terribly unviable. In fact, it isn't even "bad" in this game. That was the point. A lack of dmg lowers efficiency in a RL1 +0 dmg, but aside from rare cases it isn't until post Capital when enemy/boss health pools spike that you see it as a case of not having good damage. Pointing out daggers, in contrast, can actually have good damage in comparison to this case and then I further framed it in reference of other typical decent swords/katana and such and it isn't even really lagging then, yes, daggers are actually quite viable.
This is literally the point as to why I specifically asked OP to clarify for everyone what their issue was. Ironically, you've gone down the rabbit hole of making it about daggers when we don't really know what all of their thoughts and complaints were, or how rigid they were thinking. Why exactly do you think I provided a deeper breakdown of rogue build options exactly?
Daggers having limited range is a given...
No offense, but to borrow from you:
Moving on... While they're limited in range it isn't a huge issue, and some like the Misericorde have a bit better range. Meanwhile, there are some ways to compensate for the range as well depending on what playstyle you're utilizing.
As for poise damage?
1) Are you going to complain about longsword and katana poise damage compared to Colossal weapons and clubs next? B-b-but my Uchigatana has no poise damage compared to those! I- Since when did every weapon have to have identical even performance and playstyles?
2) Misericorde and the infamous Flames of the Redmanes or Ash of War: Glintblade Phalanx, aka the highest poise damage possible can be done using a dagger and is safer and more spammable than using the melee charge attack of other weapons. Yeah, you just walked into that hole.
Wooshhh
Should we take bets on when Daikun figures this out? Its even more ironic as you repeatedly insert <didnt read>.
Maybe if you can one day grasp the basic query of mine where I asked OP for them to elaborate on what the issue was in my very first post, ya know? Or perhaps the point that I show dagger DPS isn't actually that inefficient in Elden Ring, unlike say... Dark Souls 3? In fact, in some cases dagger DPS is far higher than most weapons despite their seemingly initial poorer stats (often in perspective of people comparing daggers never upgraded to upgraded weapons to boot further causing misconceptions).
Example of why you're wrong:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BM3-CMB72s
See this person use several different methods to do disgusting amounts of damage with daggers and not bleeding? Can you stop acting childish now? I've no idea why you went off on me, so much so that you failed to even read in your tunnel vision impaired attack, but take a step back and move on. This discussion should be about how to make a rogue viable without bleed, which it is very much so. Especially as, so far, you've stuck exclusively to daggers (which you were mistaken about, fine and now you know better right?) when rogues are typically much more.