Why ER's quest system is so good compared to hand-holding games

[Explorerbeyondthemap]

I think I understand, at least to an extent why many ER players have complained about From's vague way of handling its quests.

There seems to be two distinct types of RPG players. Well maybe, two types of video game players in general.

One wants to experience the game, take in the views and amazing sights, enjoy and appreciate the environment for the environment's sake. Truly immerse one's self in the gaming world, and then go off and try to succeed at progressing in the game. The experience of discovery and travel is a reward in its own right.

The other views a new game as one to be "consumed." What I mean is, everything is a transaction. Their goal is to get through the game as efficiently and quickly as possible, seemingly because they need to get to the next new release as soon as possible. A kind of gaming version of ADHD if you will. If they spend x amount of time defeating several mini-bosses and then a major boss, and the reward they get for it doesn't seem to equal the time and effort involved, it's a total loss and waste of time to them. The game let them down because the transaction wasn't equitable. They didn't "get enough" in gear for what they put into it. (I still cringe at the forum posts that appeared as early as FEBRUARY 26th, FOUR DAYS after release, that some players were posting with all sincerity they were "finished" or "almost finished" with the game, and asking for advice on "what to do next".) WTF? A+ for efficiency. Ummm, but F- for literally skipping 90% of the game world content.

And so the quest system for some needs to have 100% clarity and guidance and hand-holding, with mechanisms in place that allow you to quest as fast as possible, to level as fast as possible, with no excessive obstacles to achieving that. Reading the actual quest dialoge doesn't matter because you don't care what the quest actually is about. Skip, skip, skip, skip. You just want to know where to go to finish it so you can "complete the transaction."

I'm not necessarily judging or praising either way of playing. You buy the game, you have the right to play it how you want.

However, I am asserting that ER's quest system is absolutely amazing for someone who wants to immerse themselves in the world, and that it's how an RPG should be structured.

Why? Becasue this is the first game I've played in a LONG time where I wasn't given everything on a platter. The quests in this game feel REAL because often times things DON'T make total sense. Quest dialogue often DOESN'T consistently help you forward. NPC's have their own biases and personality quirks. They might say things where they are more telling you how they feel about something, but it doesn't give much or any actual direction to the player.

But think about it! Why should an adventure always be a neat, 1,2,3 process where you just mindlessly follow markers? Unless that quest system is only there to facilitate leveling. Mindless grind questing for nothing but levels.

Well, that might be efficient, but it sure as heck isn't inspiring or fun. Look at WOW, ESO, or even a game like Skyrim. Yes, those games have a lot good elements, but their quest systems are in reality not even real quest systems. They're just mindless, ultra-guided tasks where you are told exactly where to go, exactly what to do, and exactly what you'll get.

Again, efficient but where's the real adventure in it?

What I think ER does so well is precisely because its quests are so vague. You talk to an NPC, get asked to deliver something somewhere, and then after a long time you forget you even have the item in your inventory. Then you talk to another NPC far, far away and then they suddenly ask for it and you get the option to give it to them.

Well that's what would happen in a real adventure!

I love the surprises and organic feeling of quests in the ER world.

And for people complaining that "they have no clue what to do, who to talk to, or where to go in the game", I think you're missing the entire point.

Often times, all you really have to remember to do is to talk to NPC's MORE THAN ONCE when you are near them. Don't assume they only have one set of dialogue. Most times if you talk to them a second or third time, they will only give you the quest or new information on the third try. If you leave too hastily and only talk once, you completely miss their quest.

And that's all I really do in this game. Make sure I talk to NPC's thoroughly, and then just go and explore. Eventually you will run into the NPC that concludes the quest, just a matter of time.

[Nope]

Why do people think havings clues and hint of where the NPCs go is hand holding like what Skyrim and AC does
People who defend this like to claim immersive while reality, anyone who go anywhere will leave some kind of track behind or some people might spotted where they were going or they told other where would they go even if it's vague.

But FS design does not included any of that most of the time, they just ♥♥♥♥ off to somewhere in the map, no clues, no hints, no direction, no footpaths, no nothing to say these NPCs might have gone through this path and might heading to <insert location>. Really, this is what you called immersive and great design? Compared to quest marker appear 24/7? The two of the extreme are great design?

[Clail]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Originally posted by Clail:

It's nice to be able to play a game and discover things.
In far to many modern RPG's every thing is pointed out with giant arrows in the sky, making gameplay feel more like chore after chore rather than a genuine discovery.

Would you be opposed to NPCs being less cryptic about where they're going, and also having a way to track which quests you started and what you're asked to do (the same thing you could do with a piece of paper and a pen)?

Somewhat yes I would be opposed to it as it's more or less still holding your hand on where to go next, and would ruin the overall narrative these game go for having a "btw i'm going to castle stormwind, meet me there for part 2."
Most NPC's in ER already do this though, but even when they're saying they are going to X, they might run into trouble or roam off elsewhere, which I like and makes npc encounters much more memorable and interesting.

[MingQWERTY]

The funny thing is, FromSoft had a brilliant idea that they implemented in the game. Once. That's with Varre, once you've progressed until you reached Liurnia, Varre will disappear from Limgrave. However, he'll leave behind a bright glowing sign that is very clearly visible that tells you where he'll be at next.

[ɸ It That Dwells ɸ]

Somehow you missed the entire point. I don't know how, but good job.

[TwinChops]

didnt really read all, i kinda like how the "quests" are done in souls/borne/ring but i also wish there where a journal, im not a fan of writeing stuff down myself so i dont forget lol

[Drybonz]

The quests in Souls are great and the sense of discovering things works really well... however, when dropped into the open world of Elden Ring, that system, which they didn't seem to refine or change much, just didn't work. Too much gets lost... it becomes a real mess.

[gachi is manly]

Originally posted by Drybonz:

The quests in Souls are great and the sense of discovering things works really well... however, when dropped into the open world of Elden Ring, that system, which they didn't seem to refine or change much, just didn't work. Too much gets lost... it becomes a real mess.

Agreed. Never had an issue with it in previous souls games, but it's just too convoluted in some instances when you factor in the open world dynamic. Npcs can go to areas you've already completely cleared and have no reason to return to. Some quest lines just don't flow logically here compared to previous games IMO.

[GoreTiger]

Quest system is garbage and I'd be willing to bet 90% of people just google where to go.

They should of just done what witcher and other games did: Make it option. The people that don't want markers could turn them off, and the people that did could turn them on. Satisfies both worlds.

[them4pples]

if you want good no hand holding quest design, look at morrowind. this game is not a good example of it

[Mantab Souls]

Originally posted by Scuzz:

tl/dr

But the quest system seems to exist merely to frustrate the person who likes to do everything. Maybe 2-3 characters in each game have quests you can follow without a guide, the others are just there to fill the world.

Exactly! I am type of person that like to accomplish the game completely. So its frustrating to play without a guide to spoil things up

[Bab Peeg]

No.

[Butcher]

Originally posted by It's all frenzy now:

Originally posted by Butcher:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/881100/Noita/
Overwhelmingly positive

They just drop you in with no explanation what to do or what is going on. Runes are literally in finnish. Still 95%+ positive reviews.

that game is a nightmare and I still have to go back to it to figure out... well, everything?

It's not so bad, to finish the game you merely need 6 minutes:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2463638945

[kaffekoppen]

The problem here is that you'll go to some new region, and an NPC you previously wanted to do something for just magically dies. How are you supposed to know?

I know that it's supposed to simulate NPCs doing their own thing while you're playing, but it just means you'll miss out on a lot of quests.

As much of a fan I am of FromSoftware's game (and I'm a huge fan), I never liked their approach to quests, and I just look them up to understand what I'm supposed to do.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Clail:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Would you be opposed to NPCs being less cryptic about where they're going, and also having a way to track which quests you started and what you're asked to do (the same thing you could do with a piece of paper and a pen)?

Somewhat yes I would be opposed to it as it's more or less still holding your hand on where to go next, and would ruin the overall narrative these game go for having a "btw i'm going to castle stormwind, meet me there for part 2."
Most NPC's in ER already do this though, but even when they're saying they are going to X, they might run into trouble or roam off elsewhere, which I like and makes npc encounters much more memorable and interesting.

If you're expected to be able to find NPCs again in a massive open world without an online guide, then that's the bare minimum, just the NPC telling you where they're going.

And what's the issue with a basic quest log that just tells you who asked you to do what?

[Argonaut]

If you're not braindead from AAA games and have enough self control to not use a guide or watch playthroughs before you finish your own you'll enjoy the system.

If you use guides you come to the forums to complain that it's a bad system.