Counter to dragon breath in pvp?

[WhiteMamba]

Easily one of the cheapest, most broken ass things in the whole game. Cant believe it wasnt nerfed yet considering the much less broken things that got fixed (same goes for RoB and moonveil etc etc, damn the guy who balanced this game should be banned from video game designing for life)

So you guys have any strategies? When I rush in - im poise broken, when I'm behind the guy I'm still getting hit from broken hitboxes, when I roll, I get hit, but for lets say 1 tick and not 4, I can outrun it only from certain distance and any spells, daggers etc are too slow or too weak to trade. Whats more, the guys spamming this sh t in the air just fall flat on their asses once they're hit, so you can follow up and make the trade worth it

PS: NO BLOODHOUND STEP

[Senki]

Origineel geplaatst door WhiteMamba:

Origineel geplaatst door Senki:

Balance doesn't mean that the player needs to be weak.

You get 2 shot by everything, so do the enemies when you have the right build. Sounds fair in my book.

It doesnt in mine. This game was tagged difficult for a reason. You did play Dark Souls 3 am I right? Bosses were killing you in 2 hits, but was it unbalanced? Definitely not.

Anyway we all got offtopic. Back to Dragon breath: how do you effectively deal with it?

Uh, I was killing enemies and bosses just as fast if not even easier in ds3. So by your logic yes it was unbalanced. If you know what you're doing literally all souls games have high damage builds that melt stuff. They also have summons, weaker summons but still summons that make the fight a joke

You should also try lifehunt scythe in ds1 and red iron twinblade in ds2, they are something else and will open your eyes on how ''balanced'' the past games actually were.

Also idk, you kinda answered your own question, bloodhound step.

[Kyutaru]

I think the biggest problem with the game is that only Defense takes skill.

To defend against attacks you have to master dodging, parrying, blocking, etc all with precise timing. But to attack? You just mash buttons until it hits. Timing it right for critical hits or needing precise aiming is unnecessary, everything is lock on and automatic.

[Viper]

Origineel geplaatst door DayLight1943:

Origineel geplaatst door Viper:

So tell me how do you make a player able to kill a 100K boss ..but yet balance for a 1.5K PVP player. If you figure that out inform Fromsoft.

by nerfing damage in pvp specifically. the mechanic that allows fromsoft to make rings/talismans work differently in pvp vs pve can be applied to all items in the game - weapons, spells, throwing pots, even armor. the damage a weapon deals can be calculated differently in pve vs pvp.

SO make the game 2 different games. There not going to do that.People would just have fits that they cannot do as much damage in PVP as PVE..infact 1/10 the the damage probably.

[Dr.Falcon]

Origineel geplaatst door Umbral Priestess:

You don't, it's just easier to whine about it and just yell "balance it!" as if they actually understand how the games inner workings operate. they will keep crying about PVP balance. thank goodness i stopped caring about PVP balance 2 games ago. it's sad to keep seeing tears about this when there will never be a time it will be balanced.

they are not going to gut PVE in favor in PVP. ever. People are just going to have to learn to accept this and move on.

and despite what he says the previous games were also unbalanced, we just had different spells and abilites that didn't show it more.

For you, i would advise just ignoring this subject entirely, they just want to shed tears for what will never happen. and no amount of arguing or logic is going to calm them down. it's what i started doing. they will just scream untill you agree with them.

I really don't understand this take at all.

First off, to the guy that you're responding to talking about a "100k"boss. I have no clue what he's talking about. If you're talking about health, Rykard, whom you fight with the Serpent Hunter that does increased damage against him, has ~60,000 HP combining both phases. Generally, most other "end game" bosses have somewhere between ~27k-35k health. To put this in perspective, Midir in DSIII has ~15,000 health.

Much like every online game with both a PvE and PvP element, there is always an option to balance things differently for each sandbox. Mainly damage, status build up, etc. etc.
I hate making the comparison, but even Bungie with Destiny 2 makes fine tuned adjustments to each sandbox of the game. And the PvP of that game has turned into a ♥♥♥♥ show regardless.

When you mention not caring about balance "two games" ago, which games are talking about exactly? If you're talking about DSIII, the most "broken" things in that game were pyromancers using fire surge and stalling duels for three minutes straight, demon's scar+black flame true combo's, and the PKS. Which all could be countered if you were a better player. At least to me, nothing seemed absurdly broken in DSIII.

Gutting PvE for PvP? I mean, who wants that at all. i don't think any person who likes invading or duels wants the PvE to be gutted. Nor do I think changing how egregiously powerful and easy some options are in the game would detract from the PvE. Not going to lie, Elden Ring is insanely easy if you use all the things the dev's intended you to use. You can get so powerful early on that the game becomes a joke. Then you get even stronger with mimic tear later and then the game is a free win. To me, the PvE is already gutted but in a different way. After 500 hours, there is zero substance. Any character I make I know that I can get a +16-17 weapon and be at RL40-50 before even entering margit's arena. Could also get a +10 somber weapon if I do the skip to Volcano Manor and Varre's quest.

Lets remember what the original post was about. He's talking about the dragon incantations in general but specifically rot-breath. Even from a PvE stand point, how could you justify such a large, damaging hitbox from a single spell? Even bigger offender, Placidusax's Ruin. Can be cast while jumping and has an instant giant AoE hitbox that chunks for nearly ~1500 damage not counting the laser beams. Even then, for a series to claim "difficulty" as being a stepping stone, how is a spell like that even considered? Comet Azur with a cracked tear that gives infinite FP? Insta-killing bosses as they meander on over to you, that's balanced for PvE?

TL;DR, the entire game needs a face lift. The PvE and PvP balance are both awful. There are some golden moments though. Points where with the right build, and the right set up you can get an insanely good feeling boss fight or duel. My favorite fight has to be against Mohg using dual wield Sword's of Night and Flame. Not even using the weapon art's all the time, but using a fast move-set to weave my attacks through his. Not needing to rely on a 3000+ damage bleed proc but actually using my knowledge of the bosses move-set to my advantage. Likewise in PvP, getting into duels where me and my opponent both use greatswords (the weapon class not the "guts" sword) are probably my favorite fights. Utilizing both move-sets, swapping to potentially parry, using a variety of weapon arts, etc. There are ways to fix the game for both PvE and PvP, dismissing anyone and having a closed mind-set just because "I don't like PvP" doesn't mean it should be ignored considering the PvE balance is just as bad.

[Butcher]

As someone who used it, there are 2 counters.

First one is obvious: you rush the caster before he finishes long ass windup and break his poise. Could be done from range with your own spell.

Second one is running away out of range. Casting time is so long that you can easily run away and waste mana of the caster.

[WhiteMamba]

Origineel geplaatst door Butcher:

As someone who used it, there are 2 counters.

First one is obvious: you rush the caster before he finishes long ass windup and break his poise. Could be done from range with your own spell.

Second one is running away out of range. Casting time is so long that you can easily run away and waste mana of the caster.

That works as long as someone isnt boosting his casting speed too much. I need to check if kukris are enough to break poise.

[DayLight1943]

Origineel geplaatst door Viper:

SO make the game 2 different games. There not going to do that.People would just have fits that they cannot do as much damage in PVP as PVE..infact 1/10 the the damage probably.

why would changing the way damage is calculated make it 2 different games? i dont really understand that - everything would be the same except players will deal less damage to each other. also dont really understand why you jumped to it being 1/10th the damage - that is a really really extreme example that is both unlikely and does not make sense.

there probably would be some people that complain - there are people who complain about everything. at the moment it is agreed virtually unanimously among anyone who plays pvp that damage on alot of things is to high - the only complaints would be from people who are frustrated they cant get easy kills via one shots or spam, which is totally fine.

i honestly cant think of a reason why anyone would be opposed to lowering damage on things like ashes of war or powerstance L1's in pvp only aside from people who are frustrated they cant get super easy, fast kills anymore, which isnt really worth considering. seems like an "everybody wins" scenario - damage in pve stays the same, pvp gets way better and more balanced. tbh id guess the opposition to an idea like this stems mostly from pure salt over the pvp/invasion system - you dont like it so you want it to be bad or unpleasant for those that do.

[ressenmacher]

Dragon breaths can be strafed if the caster is locked onto you. Simply sprint around them in a circle and they'll miss you.

If they're freeaiming, sprint sideways but wait until you see the breath start coming out of the dragon's mouth, and then turn around immediately (block so you don't pivot when you do.) Repeat for the followup. You'll probably get clipped, but it won't be enough to deal major damage or proc a status.

If it's an aerial breath, you can predict whether they'll have a followup available by how they're holding the seal. Aerial dragon breaths can only be cast with a followup if you're mainhanding/twohanding the seal.

Also with aerial breaths, there is a small area under the player where they can't aim down far enough to hit you. Run under them if you're close, and wind up an attack for when they land (ideally not directly under them, as them landing on you can stagger you and reset to neutral).

Finally...just hit them. Dragon breaths have huge windup and grant no hyperarmor. Jump attacks in particular are good for this. Remember that for a flying/hovering breath, any damage that inflicts hitstun will knock them flat, but a cast of the lower tier breaths will require you to get through the passive poise.

[WhiteMamba]

Origineel geplaatst door ressenmacher:

Dragon breaths can be strafed if the caster is locked onto you. Simply sprint around them in a circle and they'll miss you.

If they're freeaiming, sprint sideways but wait until you see the breath start coming out of the dragon's mouth, and then turn around immediately (block so you don't pivot when you do.) Repeat for the followup. You'll probably get clipped, but it won't be enough to deal major damage or proc a status.

If it's an aerial breath, you can predict whether they'll have a followup available by how they're holding the seal. Aerial dragon breaths can only be cast with a followup if you're mainhanding/twohanding the seal.

Also with aerial breaths, there is a small area under the player where they can't aim down far enough to hit you. Run under them if you're close, and wind up an attack for when they land (ideally not directly under them, as them landing on you can stagger you and reset to neutral).

Finally...just hit them. Dragon breaths have huge windup and grant no hyperarmor. Jump attacks in particular are good for this. Remember that for a flying/hovering breath, any damage that inflicts hitstun will knock them flat, but a cast of the lower tier breaths will require you to get through the passive poise.

This is actually a very usefull information. I had no idea about followups. I also need to test that blind spot under the caster, but I remember being hit while being directly behind casters so I'm not sure if its latency or weird hitboxes. Anyway, thanks.

[ressenmacher]

Origineel geplaatst door WhiteMamba:

This is actually a very usefull information. I had no idea about followups. I also need to test that blind spot under the caster, but I remember being hit while being directly behind casters so I'm not sure if its latency or weird hitboxes. Anyway, thanks.

Glad I could help.

As for blindspots, it's only under, not behind. Dragon breaths cast from the ground will hit a player directly in front of the caster, and while the rate of traversal when actually casting is rather limited, you can turn nearly 180 degrees between the initial breath and the followup to nail people. If you're that close, you need to hit and stagger them immediately after you dodge the first breath.

[deteringwilliam]

I haven't found it that hard to avoid. The area of effect is huge, but it is slow and highly telegraphed, giving me more than enough time to rush the caster or run out of the way. Someone gets me with it, then I deserve it.