Why is sleep so weak on players?

[xXMagnusXx]

Every other status debuff deals mid-high damage or cripples the player in some way. Sleep just stuns you for like half a second.

That's kinda sad. This is a souls game. I was expecting to be on the floor for like 5-10 seconds while the enemy lines up a massive crit. Even poison is more threatening because it deals damage and you actually have to press buttons to cure it. Sleep you can completely ignore with zero consequences. I know. I tried. I stood in front of that crab with the sleep breath attack. Let him sleep me over and over while holding the block button. I never got hit because of the stun. Not once. My shield went back up before his next attack landed every single time.

P.S. I don't play PvP EVER in souls games, so... inb4 all the "It's busted in PvP" comments. I'm talking about PvE only. Even if it was designed for PvP, why not make it a legit threat in PvE as well?


Imean ffs in DS1 we had a debuff that would cut your HP bar in half permanently until you walk half way across the map and farm 10K souls to get it cured. This sleep debuff is more like an April Fool's joke.

[SadPlatty©]

Put it this way - your complaining it isn't good enough, 1 month ago or so, there where threads claiming it was OP and needed to be nerfed.

At this point, the extremes are so far apart, nothing seems balanced properly anymore. Someone will always sit on one side while another person sits on the other side of the spectrum.

And ultimately - From proved that they caved on the Curse style debuffs (half health on cursed death - which actually could stack), making it not auto-kill you in DS2 but just "hollow" your guy more. Then in 3 it was just an auto-death with "hollowing" being an NPC related thing. Now it's just the DS3 "your life likely isn't full unless you arc"; basically there are no more persistent stacks beyond death that aren't hacks.

[brimstone]

something is always either too easy or too hard for someone, you can't please everyone

just shut up and play the game

[Senki]

Yeah they could've made sleep last at least 5 seconds.

But that debuff is extremely irrelevant for the player anyway since you don't have to deal with it for 99% of the game so you shouldn't care too much about it.

[SadPlatty©]

Originalmente postado por Senki:

But that debuff is extremely irrelevant anyway since you don't have to deal with it for 99% of the game so you shouldn't care too much about it.

Which this is why I would think they need to make it powerful. If the game has almost no builds or incorporation beyond one or two fringe cases, they might as well make the items almost meta worthy.

You got one sword, torch, and then some arrows that could be left alone, and some pots they could leave alone. But if the sword mist was maybe 2x as big or the ability was double the "debuff" window, it would be at least more viable against rot which just outplays sleep currently.

Though - to be a devil's advocate, I would also be worried about increasing the debuff window, as then people would just stack it with something like rot, causing further "unbalance".

Basically just goes back to Brimstone's point.

[Senki]

Originalmente postado por SadPlatty©:

Originalmente postado por Senki:

But that debuff is extremely irrelevant anyway since you don't have to deal with it for 99% of the game so you shouldn't care too much about it.

Which this is why I would think they need to make it powerful. If the game has almost no builds or incorporation beyond one or two fringe cases, they might as well make the items almost meta worthy.

You got one sword, torch, and then some arrows that could be left alone, and some pots they could leave alone. But if the sword mist was maybe 2x as big or the ability was double the "debuff" window, it would be at least more viable against rot which just outplays sleep currently.

Though - to be a devil's advocate, I would also be worried about increasing the debuff window, as then people would just stack it with something like rot, causing further "unbalance".

Basically just goes back to Brimstone's point.

But it is powerful when the player uses it. The bosses vulnerable to it are stunned for an entire minute until you hit them. You can use slower powerful spells/attacks during that time or make 2v1 fights a 1v1.

What I was talking about is enemies that have sleep on their attacks, which as far as I know there's only one of them. When the player is affected by it it's only for a second or even less depending on your focus.

[xXMagnusXx]

Originalmente postado por SadPlatty©:

Put it this way - your complaining it isn't good enough, 1 month ago or so, there where threads claiming it was OP and needed to be nerfed.

Was it really? How was it OP? What changed?

Originalmente postado por Senki:

But that debuff is extremely irrelevant for the player anyway since you don't have to deal with it for 99% of the game so you shouldn't care too much about it.

Then why put it in the game at all if it's never gonna come up? Hopefully they explore it further in DLC.

[Fineous🔥]

Dont give a damn about the effect on players but for PVE remember this exists.

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Darkness

Gives you a chance to crit without having to build any negative status.

[Senki]

Originalmente postado por xXMagnusXx:

Originalmente postado por Senki:

But that debuff is extremely irrelevant for the player anyway since you don't have to deal with it for 99% of the game so you shouldn't care too much about it.

Then why put it in the game at all if it's never gonna come up? Hopefully they explore it further in DLC.

Idk, it feels like it was mainly made for the player to use and not the enemies. I could see them making a cool but annoying area with enemies that use that debuff tho.

[SadPlatty©]

Originalmente postado por xXMagnusXx:

Originalmente postado por SadPlatty©:

Put it this way - your complaining it isn't good enough, 1 month ago or so, there where threads claiming it was OP and needed to be nerfed.

Was it really? How was it OP? What changed?

Nothing changed, a couple of people just chatted up about how it was similarly unfair to madness where you cannot just alleviate the status immediately, and so they where unable to save themselves from getting sleep killed.

Honestly - others and myself I think just blamed it on a skill issue though, as they where specifically pointing out St. Trina's Sword, but like - why are they standing in the sleep mist? lol. They may have been trolling too - hard to tell sometimes.

Originalmente postado por Senki:

But it is powerful when the player uses it. The bosses vulnerable to it are stunned for an entire minute until you hit them. You can use slower powerful spells/attacks during that time or make 2v1 fights a 1v1.

What I was talking about is enemies that have sleep on their attacks, which as far as I know there's only one of them. When the player is affected by it it's only for a second or even less depending on your focus.

Yeah, I believe the enemy version is a bit weak; I honestly don't recall have ever being slept by a non-human enemy across the SoulsBorne series even; though I am glad they allowed us to build/mess with it.

But yeah - it in PvE is sorta how I feel Death Lightning works in PvP, and why I meant "at this point just go back to brimstone's post"; they could make changes to it to be better (though I think adding more gear would be better so it's not everyone using one build that wants to run sleep), aside from some minor adjustments like making the mist bigger (like match it to Death Maiden's Mist's size). Anything too large would just begin opening the doors for "malicious" combos like sleeping folks to then hot-swap into powerstanced UGS and they just jumping attack you (since a number of people still die in like one good hit or two normal hits).

[Toad]

Either after the Network Test or sometime during it, they nerfed Sleep due to playtesting. A few content creators that were given early access spoke about how Sleep was incredibly powerful and that had been drastically reduced.

Fromsoft has a history of laying sledgehammers to their systems when it comes to nerfs, so your original idea of 5 seconds was actually pretty close to what it was.

These days, Sleep is mainly used to get a guaranteed follow up attack and that's it. It's designed to be used in conjunction with other setups.

[Fineous🔥]

Aaaah i hope you read your thread again OP.

Prepare to be enlightened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8P7InoBcCc

Of course this works even with omens, but bosses and various big sized monsters are immune to it.
In those cases dualwielding two St.Trina is the optimal way to build up sleep (we are talking about resilient enough targets to take a good amount of hits)

I hope it helps also have fun with it!

[Fineous🔥]

Im going to correct myself.....the torch is clearly the best way (for now) to build up sleep fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WydBafRH-xw

Both live tested! For every one that asketh receiveth!

Good lord i wish we had more threads like this.....i even had a lot of fun testing them.

[Narm]

Originalmente postado por SadPlatty©:

Originalmente postado por xXMagnusXx:

Was it really? How was it OP? What changed?

Nothing changed, a couple of people just chatted up about how it was similarly unfair to madness where you cannot just alleviate the status immediately, and so they where unable to save themselves from getting sleep killed.

Honestly - others and myself I think just blamed it on a skill issue though, as they where specifically pointing out St. Trina's Sword, but like - why are they standing in the sleep mist? lol. They may have been trolling too - hard to tell sometimes.

With st. trina's sword, it's not the mist that you should be worried about. An int build powerstancing them can proc it in one or two jump attacks on a human player, and they do pretty good damage. There was actually a bug that was patched recently, specifically that the sleep weapon buff from the L2 would be removed upon taking damage. They're easier to use now that you don't have to rebuff every time you take chip damage.

The other main sleep build is an arc build with the ripple halberd and sleep grease. It gets pretty high buildup, has pretty good reach, and all you really have to do is aim for when people roll. It procs through the roll so you basically just swing at them and get free hits whenever it procs.

Then sometimes you see heavy hitting weapon in mainhand, pulley crossbow with sleep bolts in the offhand. They just focus on punishing missed attacks and then get a free hit with the big weapon whenever they sleep you. This build annoys me in particular because they don't really fight, just try to sleep you and then get a free hit. Doesn't make for an exciting match, kind of like fighting black bow users.

These builds are kind of overpowered in the hands of skilled players, but they're definitely not the biggest offenders in terms of busted pvp builds. They're just not super fun to fight against because the sleep status discourages you from engaging in melee, kind of like with vyke's warspear. Eventually you figure out how to deal with them. And they're really only good in duels, in invasions, somebody is probably swinging at you whenever you sleep someone so it's hard to followup on the free hit.

[Fineous🔥]

OP doesnt care about PVP! He is one of my guys. He wants PVEEEE answers.

Hell....i went to Gatefront ruins and put every single Godrick goon to sleep. This is BLISS!
One torch cast, thats enough to put everything to sleep.

[xXMagnusXx]

Originalmente postado por SadPlatty©:

Nothing changed, a couple of people just chatted up about how it was similarly unfair to madness where you cannot just alleviate the status immediately, and so they where unable to save themselves from getting sleep killed.

Honestly - others and myself I think just blamed it on a skill issue though, as they where specifically pointing out St. Trina's Sword, but like - why are they standing in the sleep mist? lol. They may have been trolling too - hard to tell sometimes.

Sounds like PvP talk. I can totally see how it would be busted in the realm of PvP where even a frame or two can spell death.

But I'm talking exclusively about its PvE effects. I even said so in my original post.

Tbh I'm kinda surprised how off-the-rails this conversation got. I was talking about Sleep's disproportionately negligible effect on the player in PvE. Not about its usefulness in PvP or as a weapon against mobs.