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yeah this is their first souls game and they are being destroyed for no reason.
This is the problem here.
No new players want to give themselves a spoiler and look up for build/stats/meta on their first journey.
People just want to have fun with their friends.
Then there are those nerds running around and get all the minimum smithy stone from end-game areas just to bully newbies in the Limgrave.
Red people are just like a Bike Fall Meme, they went overboard and then blame others.
1) Rot is a rather nuisance at all levels of play as, aside from duping (aka cheating), they're quite horrible to farm the consumable (Sacramental Bud ingredient) meaning everyone has to use Flame Cleanse Me normally to heal or simply outlive it via healing. Flame Cleanse me is an early spell depending on your route, but even those who have it will often not carry it around or find the chance to cast it because of the awful animation that risks getting yourself killed. Similar to madness, this is a relatively common issue at all levels of play except the very first 2-3 hours, as I already mentioned, where healing is very barebones and hard to counter. In truth, even then it can be countered but expecting this is a bit much for total newbies tbh so it is kind of unreasonable of host admittedly.
2) The dragon spell can be acquired in like your first 15 minutes of play so... calling it "twinking" is quite a considerable stretch. By the way, they do the same rot DoT so the bsae one is fine for a newbie to use and frankly honestly superior without enough FP or infinite FP flask (not even good in PvP typically) anyways. You just go to the lake near where you start and kill the first dragon which is super weak and turn its heart in. No need to fight Caelid mobs in the process, either. Just because one person goes west in an open world doesn't mean no one will go east, north, or south.
3) There are quite a number of poison options which are not far behind rot and they're available in Limgrave, Weeping, and Caelid... People severely underestimate them typically as they're not much weaker than rot but any random totally fresh newbie could have access to them in the starting area. In fact, some poison is even just as lethal as rot DoT as poison dmg varies heavily from source but at worst the weakest one is around 50% rot per tick. Why isn't this twinking?
4) Have you considered using Cerulean Flasks and the more efficient prayers to heal and counter rot, and frankly in general for PvE and PvP? Cast a regen buff, heal with prayer, etc. Blue flasks are overwhelmingly more HP recovery efficient than red flasks, but red flasks are faster. However, in a 3vs1 scenario that isn't an issue... invader needs to use their recovery option fast or they get punished. Host side has three people that will eat invader alive if they try to punish host side for using a prayer and if they can't then host side can't the host side has far bigger issues than "twinking" such as being inhumanly bad. Further, there are a lot of AoE healing spells and HP regen spells that your phantom allies can use because you can't expect host to do all the work. Your allies, especially in your case as their actual friend..., should be carrying AoE healing options such as Warmth stones, aoe prayer, aoe regen buff, etc. HP regen buffs are really nice, in particular, for countering DoT for obvious reasons. 1 Blue flask can easily equal 4+ red. Carry 1-2 red as necessary for emergency but don't put all flasks as red unless strictly solo offline or something or purely spawning at and doing a boss. Even the most basic Bestial Vitality, available at virtually the start, heals 5 HP/s which would cut that down significantly. Plus another talisman that heals another 2 HP/s in Weeping which stacks. Easy halved rot effect making it easier to manage, or even better buffs and healing from allies. Stop balancing it all around the host when there are several people there.
5) Have you considered perhaps... just not getting hit? Get behind something? How come you let them cast such a super slow spell to begin with and didn't hit them? Are you all grouped together so you can all be rot at once??? Heck, you could even cast spells, pelt with poison projectiles, etc. in response if you're just gonna stand there anyways.
6) If you level HP it wont feel so oppressive because its doing less % max HP per second so your not going OMG I'm gonna die if I spend 2 seconds not healing.
Again, rot is arguably the only even reasonably oppressive issue at low level and its still somewhat oppressive at higher, too. Anything else is either fair game or was broken at all levels to begin with like madness, BHS, etc. Mostly, it isn't an issue of "twinking" but expecting a newbie to know better, have experience or the mindset to deal with the pressure and possible solutions, rather than them having something the newbie doesn't have in return as is often untrue.
They definitely need to improve invasion timers. It should be after the invader has been expelled or at least some type of buffer (invader gone +5 extra mins even if invader dragged it until timer reset).
1) They are still in the Limgrave and I will assumes you know how big one area is in this game.
So you suggested newbies to skip whole Limgrave to get something to defend against Rot?
Their new friends dont even know what is Rot yet.
2) Yes but you need to kill the dragon first for the heart.
You expected a totally new player to run to the east Limgrave and win against the dragon in the Lake within 15 mins after they started the game?
His friends probably dont even know that there is a dragon there.
3) I bet his friends dont even know how to stack up status at this point.
4) Look at yourself on first day 15 minutes into the game, do you have all these without spoilers the game for yourself?
5) Its their first time, they dont know whatever motions another players is doing.
Its like, expect a first day born child to win some competition after being born.
6) They just started.
Anyway you can suggests a newbie player, without spoil the game for them?
I'm sorry you've had to deal with this. Twinks are significantly weaker in Elden Ring, but even when highballing hosts they're still stronger than the host up until the end of Limgrave, and probably significantly stronger than they should be up until early Altus/late Caelid (you can see my math here). It isn't really their fault they're losing, and they aren't doing anything seriously wrong or playing poorly.
I would recommend just doing Limgrave solo, as much as that sucks, and then maybe trying in Liurnia and seeing how that goes. Multiple players who are well built for that point in the game could probably conceivably handle even most of the twinks, though I suspect it would be an uphill battle.
This presupposes knowledge of where to get the spell in the first place. Caelid is probably the third region players are meant to fully clear, and even then, the Cathedral is stuck on the very edge of the place and guarded by Knight's Cavalry and what's probably the second hardest flying dragon in the game.
For most weapons, poison allowed to run the full course would deal 756 damage to a 1000 max HP player. Rot allowed to run the full course, and inflicted by a weapon (Rot Breath, Ezyke's, and Scarlet Aeonia are slightly weaker at low max HP), would do 1512. I don't think any player-inflicted poison matches rot; the special poison weapons are actually weaker than standard poison over the long term, and are still slightly weaker than rot short term. Maybe the Poison Spraymist is weird?
This is exactly a 50% damage increase, which is extreme on its own...but recall that you obtain the recipe and materials for crafting anti-poison consumables in Limgrave, while Neutralizing Boluses for rot require Crystal Cave Moss (first accessible in Liurnia) and Sacramental Buds (first accessible in Altus or Caelid). The big difference is that a player is likely to be able to cure poison, but not rot.
This is good advice.
I run a 120 Dragon Communion caster, and in the arena, against players who actively partake in PvP, ones who have presumably fought at least two and probably more dragons, I still often see people vaccilate at midrange when I start winding up breaths. When mixups get involved, even pretty experienced players can get caught in this stuff; for total noobs, who have literally never seen any attack like this ever before, and who are at a significant statistical disadvantage compared to the near parity my opponents enjoy, this advice is just not feasible.
That said, if twinks are a serious problem, getting better at fighting Rotten Breath is a good idea. Jump attacks are very strong against dragon breaths because they do massive poise damage.
By the way, OP, do any of your friends have high level characters? Some, especially magic builds or ones with strong scaling, don't get properly reduced in strength when password summoned and thus tend to ♥♥♥♥ on most twinks at skill parity. If you've got one, you could just summon them and have them hang back in regular fights but crumple up twinks when/if they show up.
1) This is why I suggested other ways to deal with it. However, it should also be noted that I pointed out Flame Cleanse me, literally the only actual meaningful way to cleanse rot in the game, isn't very viable in PvP due to the fact that it has an asininely long animation (like bruh time out, please don't stab me I'm reloading my gun!) and you have to actually... have it equipped to begin with. The boluses are, for all intents and purposes, quite finite outside the exception someone dupes them at which point they're playing outside the rules to begin with and your stuck with an unfair situation regardless.
2) 100% Yes, I absolutely expect a new player to be able to kill that dragon at the start. It is, literally, one of the first likely encounters they will face and aside from the wolf case is highly likely the first boss in the game most players will encounter. Some may contend to skip it because they just can't git gud but this is, fortunately, an exceptionally easy dragon to defeat even in the first few minutes. Again, yes. Now, your point about them knowing the dragon aside from simply wandering down to the group of peculiar chanting people in the distance to result in a dragon sweeping down, while likely to occur in the first 15-20 minutes (if they don't die at tree sentinel 10x first) is probably not intentionally sought just as they wouldn't likely intentionally know about and seek the rot dragon breath. This comes down to "knowledge" which you can't truly balance around as even by sheer coincidence two players will have different experiences and discoveries unless hyper thorough in a game like this. I merely pointed it out as it is "technically not a twink" thing, in the same vein that I could point out Sacred Blade is available super early but so many players totally miss this epic PvE ash, or Torrent being missed... Basically, the real problem is information inequality and obviously skill discrepancy. Not twinking which is being mislabeled.
3) And? How about someone who has never played Elden Ring but has played Dark Souls 3 and knows how debuffs work? Is that twinking or unfair now? How about someone who has played similar games? How about similar situations in other games like League of Legends where you have scrubs in gold building glass canon while someone else goes tanky AP or tanky DPS and annihilates the bad build player because "they don't even know how to build and optimize"? How about end game Elden Ring players that are still total scrubs when it comes to knowing how things work in the game or thinking X, Y, Z, etc. are crazy OP and absolutely indisputably impossible to counter? What if player 1 reads a guide/wiki but player 2 goes in blind? I'm sure you get the point. The best bet would be some type of matchmaking system to leverage and gradually separate those who clearly know and perform better but... that is about the extent you can protect from knowledge gaps.
4) First 15 mins? No, first 2-4 hours? Most likely. The chest was a common complaint because of the teleportation mechanic during release day... Bestial Vitality is, literally, at a waypoint marked on your map by an NPC in north Limgrave. However, assume someone didn't really explore north Limgrave? What if they also just went straight to castle in southern Weeping and didn't explore Weeping Peninsula? They could readily miss both of these simply by coincidence or lack of exploration. Is that unfair? It's not very straight forward and if you balance with such an expectation, aside from making the game totally linear, it is impossible to balance this and in fact most other games are far less balanced in this regard such as MMORPGs.
5) Very true, and thus they should simply die and learn from it the first couple of deaths rather than getting stressed. Honestly, immediately jumping into coop is actually doing an amazing job of totally screwing them over unless that coop partner is teaching them along the way when they wipe or make mistakes. This game has 309 weapons, and dozens of ashes and spells, and there will have to be a "first time" for all of it up until the very end of the game. Compared to League of Legends or Dota 2 this is far less of an obstacle. Those games feature dozens of items, countless builds, over 100 characters, strategies, etc. all to learn and cope with the moment the gate opens to their first game but it is considered acceptable (or was until RIOT forced bots for newbies).
6) I know, that is why I'm advising them to level vigor. The sooner they learn its value the smoother their sailing, not just for PvP but PvE equally as much.
Yup, I'm suggesting... that they level HP. No spoilers.
Go for it, lets see what happened and if I see Tree Sentinel doing the destroying... EVIL!
ressenmacher brings up a good point. Limgrave really should be done at least in large part solo initially if struggling. Actually, what might have been best is if FROM simply had a starter/tutorial region that supported coop but denied all invasions while newbies got their feet wet learning some of the early ropes.
From your suggestion.
All of that is impossible for a newbie player that just start Elden Ring as their 1st souls game.
Knowledge gap is wide but it doesnt mean that new player need to bear a bully at the start of the game.
From your answers, you expected everyone to look at the guide before start if they want to have fun or play alone offline.
If they going in blind then they need to accept the consequences, which is this Twinks problem OP have.
You didnt just suggest them to lvl vigor, you suggest them to counter the mechanics they have a problem with, while they are in the game early on for the first time.
You ask his friends if he know what "Flame Cleans me" is, if he even know what it is.
Even your first time you said so yourself that it might takes 2 - 4 hours.
Imagine them, should they play like you? or enjoy themselves?
And the answer is they cant enjoy the game if they need to shove all these informations in their head the first time they try things out.
Not everyone is the same, you might enjoy pre-learning.
They might enjoy going in blind.
But you know what, dying to a tree sentinel is more fun than getting killed by the same Twinks at the 1st area.
Source: https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Poison
Note, they're 30 seconds but also I believe at least Venomous Fang can also be infused/buffed and you should be attacking enough that the duration is not a major factor (unless the goal is to proc and run like a jerk, at which point invader is absolutely taking advantage of the newbies).
Fetid pot types are close at (Max HP * 0.0014) + 12 per second for 30 seconds which could be used by ally phantoms/host during these bouts from blindside or during swings or manual aim. Those using these can prove tricky outside coordinated effort...
The rest I'm not too sure about since the wiki lacks data as you likely saw. Thus, considering the locatino of the two weapons with deadly poison, especially Serpentbone, I'd say it can usually be considered as you showed math at half rate compared to rot which is still deadly just not quite as imminently harmful.
You brought up a good point about poison healing options which I meant to go over but actually forgot. Poison boluses probably will not be in much stock early to be relevant, leaving just the very slow anti-poison spell which suffers same PvP issue as Flame Cleanse me which is that it animation locks so hard even a group of friends might not be able to fully protect you. Still, it is at least a reasonable counter and there are some tricks to make it more feasible with teamwork/environment at play where rot has none but it can also be reapplied more easily than subsequent rot via dragon spells/ Rot via weapons is another hurdle, at which point similar to poison by weapons or large crafted consumable stockpile, has no true counter/negation just minimization.