The real problem with invasions

[Stinkhole]

Greetings. So I recently watched this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hp7wVr1KNQ

To resume :
- People don't coop with randoms except for boss fights
- Most people cooping in the world are password buddies
- The cooldown before being invaded again appears to start when you get invaded (15mn timer starts when you get invaded so if you take 10mn to kill the invader you will be invaded again shortly after)

The consequences are, invaders only get matched with coop partners wanting to PvE in peace. Having an invader coming every hour or so is fine but because most people play solo or coop for bosses only, the invasion pool is limited to password buddies, making them getting all the invasion on their asses.

The solution would be to allow invasion on solo hosts again. That way everyone would get invaded but far less often.

Hope this wasn't posted already but anyway, what do you think ?

[Rog - Obbu]

If it were a divide between engaging with specially tailored pvp content and robust pvp reward structures, vs opting out to just chill with your furled finger buddies - it wouldn't feel so wonky.

But as it stands, the comparison between the progression structure of PvE vs PvP is absurdly stark - and mashing the two systems together just feels uncomfortable to most people.

There's a certain neat high-concept-ness to it all, but the actual systems that are needed to grease the wheels (and encourage people to engage with them) just aren't present.

[Get Donked On]

I fail to see how invasions make the game harder to progress every fight you actually need help with is inside boss fog wall or am i crazy? The only one people summon for where you could invade is the tree sentinel at the start where you can seal club people that don't understand co-op is really bad in that area. Other than that you can get carried trough the entire game if you just summon in front of every boss and not a single invader is gonna do anything about it. Ill be honest i think these arguments are all going nowhere but im getting tired of the "invasions are there to balance co-op " arguments. No they aren't. ATM they just make it so co-op only happens in front of boss walls wich is even more so encouraged by the fact co-op summons only get rewards for stomping bosses

[Rem]

İlk olarak SmallGespenst tarafından gönderildi:

so you're outright stating you stayed embered so you could fight invaders in order to prove that people used embers to get the max HP power-up
congratulations? you argued against a point I wasn't making.
My argument was that the multiplayer opt-in effectively overrides any other function in the eyes of a player, and the fact that you stated that you stayed embered to get invaded supports that fact.

No, the argument you made was that "tying a power-up to the "mulitplayer activation item" just erases the power-up in the minds of every player." Fighting invaders was one of the reasons I stayed embered, but I also found the buff beneficial for fighting bosses and PvE, so it was a win win for me. All I was trying to really say with my original responses is don't make and argument assuming "everybody" plays a certain way, there's no way for you to prove it and it doesn't make you right regardless.

Also, you changed your argument to "multiplayer opt-in effectively overrides any other function in the eyes of a player." You could just say this was YOUR experience and what YOU think, if that's the case. I've already argued why I think this buff should activate invasions, but I've yet to hear a valid argument countering it from you.

[mpcgannon]

I can't remember who or where ( let us know if you see this ) but someone brilliantly pointed out that the purpose of co-op has been flipped on its head. Forgive me if I get this wrong, here goes.
With solo invasions, it is encouraged to use co-op as a form of protection. But with Elden Ring removing solos, co-op is now the means to antagonize invasions. So co-op went from protection to antagonizing / invitation. And this is clearly not making anyone happy.

[aHIGHERmind]

Don't overthink it. It's complete trash, and FS is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ retardedly incompetent and unable to make anything multiplayer functional or worthwhile. (I do agree with your point on password ppl getting the invasions)

[Rem]

İlk olarak Get Donked On tarafından gönderildi:

I fail to see how invasions make the game harder to progress every fight you actually need help with is inside boss fog wall or am i crazy? The only one people summon for where you could invade is the tree sentinel at the start where you can seal club people that don't understand co-op is really bad in that area. Other than that you can get carried trough the entire game if you just summon in front of every boss and not a single invader is gonna do anything about it. Ill be honest i think these arguments are all going nowhere but im getting tired of the "invasions are there to balance co-op " arguments. No they aren't. ATM they just make it so co-op only happens in front of boss walls wich is even more so encouraged by the fact co-op summons only get rewards for stomping bosses

That's the case currently and always has been, however it makes it so those who summon through the open world or legacy dungeons don't have a cake walk to the boss. Actually, in this title, you can invade while hosts are fighting world bosses, so what you said isn't true in the slightest.

[mpcgannon]

İlk olarak Rem tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Get Donked On tarafından gönderildi:

I fail to see how invasions make the game harder to progress every fight you actually need help with is inside boss fog wall or am i crazy? The only one people summon for where you could invade is the tree sentinel at the start where you can seal club people that don't understand co-op is really bad in that area. Other than that you can get carried trough the entire game if you just summon in front of every boss and not a single invader is gonna do anything about it. Ill be honest i think these arguments are all going nowhere but im getting tired of the "invasions are there to balance co-op " arguments. No they aren't. ATM they just make it so co-op only happens in front of boss walls wich is even more so encouraged by the fact co-op summons only get rewards for stomping bosses

That's the case currently and always has been, however it makes it so those who summon through the open world or legacy dungeons don't have a cake walk to the boss. Actually, in this title, you can invade while hosts are fighting world bosses, so what you said isn't true in the slightest.

I think the post you replied to had an oversight regarding field bosses, but the dynamic of mp being focused around boss fights, or at least encouraged for boss fights ( to avoid being invaded ) is spot on.

[Get Donked On]

İlk olarak Rem tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Get Donked On tarafından gönderildi:

I fail to see how invasions make the game harder to progress every fight you actually need help with is inside boss fog wall or am i crazy? The only one people summon for where you could invade is the tree sentinel at the start where you can seal club people that don't understand co-op is really bad in that area. Other than that you can get carried trough the entire game if you just summon in front of every boss and not a single invader is gonna do anything about it. Ill be honest i think these arguments are all going nowhere but im getting tired of the "invasions are there to balance co-op " arguments. No they aren't. ATM they just make it so co-op only happens in front of boss walls wich is even more so encouraged by the fact co-op summons only get rewards for stomping bosses

That's the case currently and always has been, however it makes it so those who summon through the open world or legacy dungeons don't have a cake walk to the boss. Actually, in this title, you can invade while hosts are fighting world bosses, so what you said isn't true in the slightest.

Sure the world bosses you mean the dragons or the black knights the 2 easiest boss types in the game sorry if i dont count the bosses that can be summed up with smack the feet or get on your horse and ride next to the side without the weapon. Summoning there makes your fight way harder on yourself cuz you would have to actually use your brain if the invader shows up. Also as i said who actually finds the dungeons and world bosses difficult? Its always the boss fights that are the real road block for people that summon. Also dont appreciate having my arguments dismissed as lies because you find a technicality that's not even very relevant and easily countered with the fact world bosses are easier solo.

[Nerevar]

İlk olarak cridus tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak fauxpas tarafından gönderildi:

We'll see, because my prediction is that within three titles the Invasion system will go away if it isn't radically changed, even the devs themselves are on record saying that what it turned into wasn't what they wanted.

How many years ago did Miyazaki say that? How many games did they make after that, with the invasion system mostly unaltered?
I ask because I see tons of people using this argument like it's super important, but facts say otherwise.

i actually wanna see the quote from the devs he is referreing too there as i never saw that from any source other than random posters claiming it.

[fauxpas]

İlk olarak Nerevar tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak cridus tarafından gönderildi:

How many years ago did Miyazaki say that? How many games did they make after that, with the invasion system mostly unaltered?
I ask because I see tons of people using this argument like it's super important, but facts say otherwise.

i actually wanna see the quote from the devs he is referreing too there as i never saw that from any source other than random posters claiming it.

https://youtu.be/g79nmPfLph8

The quote people are referring to is in here, it's not dated though.

[Stinkhole]

İlk olarak mpcgannon tarafından gönderildi:

I can't remember who or where ( let us know if you see this ) but someone brilliantly pointed out that the purpose of co-op has been flipped on its head. Forgive me if I get this wrong, here goes.
With solo invasions, it is encouraged to use co-op as a form of protection. But with Elden Ring removing solos, co-op is now the means to antagonize invasions. So co-op went from protection to antagonizing / invitation. And this is clearly not making anyone happy.

That's a good point I didn't though about that way tho cooping in previous titles increases the invasion chance if I recall correctly

[mpcgannon]

İlk olarak fauxpas tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Nerevar tarafından gönderildi:

i actually wanna see the quote from the devs he is referreing too there as i never saw that from any source other than random posters claiming it.

https://youtu.be/g79nmPfLph8

The quote people are referring to is in here, it's not dated though.

Good video. Thanks for sharing.

[Nerevar]

İlk olarak fauxpas tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Nerevar tarafından gönderildi:

i actually wanna see the quote from the devs he is referreing too there as i never saw that from any source other than random posters claiming it.

https://youtu.be/g79nmPfLph8

The quote people are referring to is in here, it's not dated though.

well atleast its supposed to be what he has said.
however it also makes it pretty clear THEY WANT the invader to have a purpose in there. so beeing forced againist an invader WAS part of the idea. as this quote just proves again what me and others said already : the invader is supposed to BALANCE the world out kinda like a stronger pve enemy.
and i would say that works quite fine even today the usual tryhard invader excluded.
i doubt theyll get rid of the system entirely even in the future. (unless they also get rid of coop at the same time and go full scale singleplayer like sekiro but thats a different case entirely) as its a very unique feature of these games and i dont know ANY online game with a similar system in the entire market.

these games have alot of unique aspects to them compared to the mass market. there is plenty of peaceful coop only games out there already. it makes no sense to target an audience that already has other games to choose from. in todays gameing market you target and find your NICHE to develop the game you envision as a dev. indie titles prove that this works just fine even today.

the sole reason to target the mass market is MONEY. not actually makeing good games. which is sad but also reality. i hope from isnt getting taken over by the suits makeing the discions for game design in the future due to moneygreed. that happend to too many "once good" game studios in the last 15 years and it pretty much turned good games into ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. prime examples of this are cdpr and bethetic. ill just hope from doesnt follow suit.

the video is also wrong on the fact that it claims "twinking was made harder and harder" well in elden ring its stupid easy thanks to spirit ash upgrades apparently NOT affecting matchmaking in ds3 it was actually harder. that makes it stupid easy to get trough the game without useing upgrades believe it or not. and in order to create a twink you dont need to beat the ENTIRE set of bosses to begin with. only the ones you need for gear. in most cases you can access all you want already after morgott.

[Get Donked On]

i mean if low level invasions werent so bad most of the complaining would be gone that and a better invasion timer are honestly points i cant see any reason to not agree with other than being a twink. altho their adevertising was at best dishonest and at worst just straight up false if you look at their trailers its no wonder people feel tricked about the co-op especially as it doesnt state "oh yeah btw co-op comes with dark souls pvp but worse have fun".
When you get past level 80 co-op in elden ring is fine, not good but fine its at least almost based on skill and you can actually kill your opponents.
At lower levels tho if you face a twink you might as well run towards the elden beast at lvl 1 thatll be a more fun experience than fighting twinks. assuming those twinks arent abusing the glitched items cuz then its even worse and you might as well just alt f4

[Nerevar]

a few things hosts often do not consider. the invader must KILL the host to win. the host must not. you can also run away to reach the boss instead OR HIDE till the invader gives up. atleast the later was part of it in the past.

in elden ring they actually removed that host advantage ENTIRELY by adding this silly marker that shows me as an invader where the host is way too well. this makes hideing no longer an option. another claim from the video that got proven wrong here. this actually makes it easier for the invader compared to before.
the marker shouldnt appear when the host uses mimic veil. same for blues when the invader uses it. its just dumb and defeats the purpose of the veil entirely.