Whats the deal with Rebirth?

[Average Juice Enjoyer]

Is there any reason it appears to be limited per playthrough? Also can other players drop me the larval tear i need to perform a rebirth?

I figured it would be the same way as dark souls 2 where you can farm them from a specific location. I don't see any reason to make these a limited item.

[SoundsOfNight]

Hmm very interesting, thx. 20 is a lot, seems arbitrary, but I feel like thats a reasonable number.

[Morton Koopa Jr.]

Originally posted by Elazul:

I agree it's dumb. There should be infinite respecs bought with runes at a high price. People are already telling you to backup your save which is save scumming/cheating. If you have to cheat to get around a game mechanic that is kind of a hint that it's bad game mechanic people don't like.

lol it's entirely user choice to try to get around a game mechanic. That's the user's call. It doesn't mean the mechanic is poor or not.

[HighLanderPony]

More arbitrary limitations for miniscule gain.

10/10 game intensifies. /s

[Morton Koopa Jr.]

Originally posted by HighLanderPony:

More arbitrary limitations for miniscule gain.

10/10 intensifies./s

Lol it's not even normal to even have respecs in a game like this.. The fact that you can at all is strange; you should have to play through the game with the choices you've made.

Frankly, the only reason why someone would complain would be because of pvp...and I'm still not sure why everyone seems obsessed with pvp in these games. It's like Pokemon. Why play a game for pvp that requires so much grinding.

[Average Juice Enjoyer]

I would argue that you should have infinite respec due to how long it would take to collect every weapon/spell/armor/incantation/ash on one character and then even longer to max upgrade them all. I get that 20 is alot but in comparison to the time it takes to get everything on one character, it's just not enough.

The sole reason, in my opinion, to make another character is to play at different Rune Levels. I don't see any benefit in making 10 characters all with different builds when i should be able to just adapt and alter my build as i like. It doesn't harm anyone.

[zab]

you really really don't need more respecs than what the game gives you

[SadPlatty©]

Originally posted by impuretrash2878:

Originally posted by SadPlatty©:

Ok, so some people are building slow and steady and need 20 respecs to figure out their builds sure - but do you really need more than 20 per playthrough?

This is like saying, that in 20 attempts at creating a good build, you still do not have the pieces figured out to beat the game...

I get PvP is a thing - and you would want to have builds for that - but I would argue this is the reason we also have 10 toon slots. Otherwise, I feel like disagreeing with this is to say we either should allow infinite respecs and go back to one toon slot, or having the potential of 200 respecs across 10 characters is plenty.

This is probably why Twinking is still an allowed thing - half of the good stuff doesn't require you to spend 70 hours to get. 20 maybe, but if you can't afford 20 hours to build up a PvP character, then it also speaks to us not needing multiple slots. Hell, I would almost argue that you should probably just copy-paste a build if you can't spend 20 hours to make a seperate PvPer.

And as someone else mentioned - save scumming is a thing to. Not great, but in ER it DOES also help you not get ♥♥♥♥♥♥ by the cloud save issue, so... win-win?

Why stop at 20 though? What's the harm in respeccing as many times as you want?

The harm is that it enables either the ideology that "I don't need to consider my build unless I am getting bodied by everything", or "I can just drop points into whatever since it doesn't really matter what I level". You yourself even said:

Originally posted by impuretrash2878:

I respecced a couple times with my squishy mage build during the campaign to make certain boss battles a little easier and then back again to the squishyness.

So, you wanted your build to be A, but then it didn't work for you later so you made build B, THEN went back to build A. This to me is like saying "I like to be a glass-cannon, but don't have the patience/skill to make it work when the going gets tough", as you eventually modified it. You don't end up committing to anything in particular and build variety hinders as it never mattered in the first place.

I get that this is basically Casual-Souls (you don't even need to beat the game twice to get everything anymore beyond endings); but to essentially remove any consideration from builds in favor of everyone being able to "do it all on one file" would make me think this should just be a single player game. You can quickly respec for every single boss-fight to use the literal best gear for every single encounter; having other people would just slow you down as they may not be spec'ed out right to fight something.

Put it this way - why am I not allowed to have infinite lives in Contra? I deserve as much a chance to see and beat the game as anyone else - I shouldn't need to develop skills to get there if it takes more than 20 minutes.

[SadPlatty©]

Originally posted by Carlton Hanks:

I would argue that you should have infinite respec due to how long it would take to collect every weapon/spell/armor/incantation/ash on one character and then even longer to max upgrade them all. I get that 20 is alot but in comparison to the time it takes to get everything on one character, it's just not enough.

The sole reason, in my opinion, to make another character is to play at different Rune Levels. I don't see any benefit in making 10 characters all with different builds when i should be able to just adapt and alter my build as i like. It doesn't harm anyone.

I can get collecting some stuff would be a pain in the ass (good luck wanting a Sacred Relic Greatsword on a new toon), but otherwise - why do you need to collect everything on every character?

Once you know where X item is, why not just quickly note the spot or use the wiki to find it again for another character?

Somethings again I will agree are tough - incantation boosting gear is handed out near the beginning as opposed to sorcery stuff. Though I would argue this is why you resepc your first toon into the toughest to get gear, so you can worry about the ez ones on others. Then you can have a whole lot of PvPers ready without needing to write numbers onto paper to remember the build later.

[Elazul]

Originally posted by Morton Koopa Jr.:

Originally posted by Elazul:

I agree it's dumb. There should be infinite respecs bought with runes at a high price. People are already telling you to backup your save which is save scumming/cheating. If you have to cheat to get around a game mechanic that is kind of a hint that it's bad game mechanic people don't like.

lol it's entirely user choice to try to get around a game mechanic. That's the user's call. It doesn't mean the mechanic is poor or not.

Nah bro. User choice would be having the infinite respecs and if you don't like it don't use them. This is people cheating in order to get around a ♥♥♥♥ feature that's only purpose is to force people to sink more time into either creating new characters or going through NG+ when all they want to do is try another weapon or build.

[SadPlatty©]

Originally posted by Elazul:

Originally posted by Morton Koopa Jr.:

lol it's entirely user choice to try to get around a game mechanic. That's the user's call. It doesn't mean the mechanic is poor or not.

Nah bro. User choice would be having the infinite respecs and if you don't like it don't use them. This is people cheating in order to get around a ♥♥♥♥ feature that's only purpose is to force people to sink more time into either creating new characters or going through NG+ when all they want to do is try another weapon or build.

Show me 20 builds that do not share stats with the others, requiring more than 20 re-specs - I will wait as long as it takes. And spoiler alert - I know it requires you going back and forth between STR/DEX/INT/FTH/ARC multiple times (like testing one rapier, then a greatsword, then a katana that you could have tested earlier).

To say you cannot try all weapons on 5-7 re-specs near end-game to find out things you want to build for is crazy. Before then, you would have 13-15 shots at getting something that gets you up-to and through the Beast.

This is just more "Builds are hard, we shouldn't need to put this much thought into them". Hell, most are online at this point - unless you are such a purist you literally refuse to ever use the wiki regardless of being in NG+++ or whatever, there are plenty of resources to do this in a fraction of the time.

[Elazul]

Originally posted by SadPlatty©:

Originally posted by Elazul:

Nah bro. User choice would be having the infinite respecs and if you don't like it don't use them. This is people cheating in order to get around a ♥♥♥♥ feature that's only purpose is to force people to sink more time into either creating new characters or going through NG+ when all they want to do is try another weapon or build.

Show me 20 builds that do not share stats with the others, requiring more than 20 re-specs - I will wait as long as it takes. And spoiler alert - I know it requires you going back and forth between STR/DEX/INT/FTH/ARC multiple times (like testing one rapier, then a greatsword, then a katana that you could have tested earlier).

To say you cannot try all weapons on 5-7 re-specs near end-game to find out things you want to build for is crazy. Before then, you would have 13-15 shots at getting something that gets you up-to and through the Beast.

This is just more "Builds are hard, we shouldn't need to put this much thought into them". Hell, most are online at this point - unless you are such a purist you literally refuse to ever use the wiki regardless of being in NG+++ or whatever, there are plenty of resources to do this in a fraction of the time.

It's more along the lines of feeling like being magic one day and being pure strength the next, etc. Sure you could create multiple characters, but not everyone wants to or has time to spend however many hours rushing multiple characters to 150 for every build idea they have. It's about player choice and agency. And I sincerely doubt having the ability to respec an infinite amount of times would majorly impact the game any any negative way except perhaps saving everyone headaches and time grinding.

[Romeolea]

Originally posted by Carlton Hanks:

Is there any reason it appears to be limited per play through? Also can other players drop me the larval tear i need to perform a rebirth?

I figured it would be the same way as dark souls 2 where you can farm them from a specific location. I don't see any reason to make these a limited item.

I wondered this as well. My only conclusion are the soft/hard caps. As an example my vigor is around 50 to 55. I know the cap is around there for diminishing returns so I won't put any more points there for quite some time. That let's me invest points into other places. Mind as another example is what 38 because this is how much a full upgraded flask will replenish your mp so why put more points into mind until after you have points into other places. Same with endurance but this one I'd go to around 50 or so as well. I think it makes much more sense as you get higher in levels since you'll hit the soft/hard caps for every stat and basically just kind of throw points into whatever stat until it hits 99. So for me for instance I can have a lot of different viable builds and it will only increase as I level up. Eventually you just won't need the tears I would think. I will say that I used up all 18+ tears on my first play through because I was looking for that one weapon that I really enjoyed. But as soon as i got to the end bosses I specc'ed in such a way that I don't have to worry about HP/FP and endurance and just focus on the other stats. I don't like colossal weapons so I don't have to specc for them. But still again as I increase in levels I won't need to respecc.

That is my idea of why they offer limited amounts. Just an opinion though.

[Romeolea]

Originally posted by Carlton Hanks:

I would argue that you should have infinite respec due to how long it would take to collect every weapon/spell/armor/incantation/ash on one character and then even longer to max upgrade them all. I get that 20 is alot but in comparison to the time it takes to get everything on one character, it's just not enough.

The sole reason, in my opinion, to make another character is to play at different Rune Levels. I don't see any benefit in making 10 characters all with different builds when i should be able to just adapt and alter my build as i like. It doesn't harm anyone.

I wouldn't say infinite respeccs, I would say though leveling up should be easier. I forgot how many levels 700+ you should easily be able to get to level 200 on the first play through with mobs giving better experience. As it stands there are only so many viable options to level up properly and now you have the glitch places to gain runes which is counterproductive. Boost the xp of the mobs and then lower it again around level 400 or so or whatever you have to do. Basically even out the experience gains.

I do wish you could store your weapons and use them on another character even if they were locked until you found the one in that characters play through. Is a shame to have all these weapons I have many characters but I cant see myself leveling up again. At best I'll just go to NG+ and grind out levels there until I have optimum points in all my stats. 250 or 300 should be enough if not lower to have enough points in every stat to pick up every weapon and use every build in the game.

[SadPlatty©]

Originally posted by Elazul:

It's more along the lines of feeling like being magic one day and being pure strength the next, etc. Sure you could create multiple characters, but not everyone wants to or has time to spend however many hours rushing multiple characters to 150 for every build idea they have. It's about player choice and agency. And I sincerely doubt having the ability to respec an infinite amount of times would majorly impact the game any any negative way except perhaps saving everyone headaches and time grinding.

I feel this as well - my main toon right now is on their third respec for NG++. I did run one DEX/INT, then I went FTH/ARC, and my next build is likely going to be ARC/STR (I love the dragon magic ).

But when you can just walk into NG(+-cycle you are about to go to), you can just get more respecs? You don't even need to play too much longer after that to get the ability to respec again - the map is all unlocked and your markers stay (so you could even mark the tears on one run, to get them every concurrent one).

IDK - have not messed with save scumming, but if you can "overwrite" a save with another one (I am imagining it is possible since Nexus has saves on it) - you could probably "save state" a toon and then load it over another save? I don't think the game would freak if you have two "Lautric of Carim's" (not as much as any firekeepers anyway).

Not trying to say "yall suck" or anything like it either - I get the need for at least 10 (sometimes you think those 5 extra points of VIG is worth it and find out later stamina would be better). I just feel like 20 a run is a lot (my NG+ run was like, 40 hours with some exploration - 40 hours for 20 respecs isn't terrible imo). Maybe I just managed to find the sweet-spot between Demon's Souls 12 years ago and ER (plenty of time to get gud as they say lol).

[Mepho]

Originally posted by Elazul:

I agree it's dumb. There should be infinite respecs bought with runes at a high price. People are already telling you to backup your save which is save scumming/cheating. If you have to cheat to get around a game mechanic that is kind of a hint that it's bad game mechanic people don't like.

One could argue failing 23 times in distributing stats is the real dumb.
You don't have to cheat to get around the mechanic, you have to cheat because you can't adjust to that mechanic (literally 23 times is not enough for you to get it right).
If that's the case, I would suggest going to 500 would still present the same issue, just choose over youtube and copy.

Personally I just went with a quality build thinking I'd just adapt along the way.
For instance in the beginning I prioritized 20 str and dex because that would allow me (assumption) to use the majority of melee weapons. I was always undecided (wanted to use UGS but couldn't justify it) and ultimately decided for Dex.
This simply means I went to 40 with Vigor, Endurance, Str and Dex, then I dumped in Dex up to 50, then I started dumping in the other 3.
Now (I think) I'm at 50 dex, 45 str, 50 vigor and 50 endurance. I ultimately never respecced.
I also dropped 3-4 points in faith and arcane to go 12 12 and try bloodflame weapon, but I'm at level 150 something now. The "build" was already done way before that. I guess if you don't plan on using magic once you get 40-50 vig and meet your weapon requirements 90% of the build is actually done. Rest is optimizing or pushing damage.

You really don't need much to figure out a build, the real issue is indecisiveness I guess, just think it through before reincarnating instead of going random and see what sticks. It's basically just finding the requirements for the weapons you're gonna use and then dump all in your main stat.

Starting characters are also quite good to test different playstyles. In example if you're coming from a melee like me and want to try a caster don't respec and check, just make an astrologer (or whatever the int caster is) and check that.

If all else fails there's saves backups yes, but also NG+ for another 22 respecs.
And then NG++ for 22 more.
And then again, and again.

[edit]
I thought this was obvious but I see the point still being made, so:
The downside in allowing infinite respec is diminishing (more like deleting, actually) the weight of leveling itself.
If I can just switch my stat distribution on a whim, anytime no consequence, then how I distribute those stats becomes meaningless.
Why would I think about putting a point in Str or Dex? Int or Faith? Main stat or Vigor? Nobody gives a ♥♥♥♥, I'll just drop them as I feel and if it doesn't work I'll change them later.
Oh what's this new weapon? It looks so cool, but it requires intellect and I'm strenght/faith... Oh wait, now I've got 60 intellect nevermind.