Pvp hit boxes are wack

[TheJewishSloth]

I keep getting hit from peeps looking away from me and hitting the air.

[Xengre]

Yup, from what I have seen modders check it uses a very poor bounding sphere volume that isn't physically accurate (such as jumps being so inaccurate lifting above knees and head significantly that people think jump has iframes when it does not). Additional weapon and attack hitboxes and garbage netcode plus any latency issues... is a recipe for not the most accurate hit detection unfortunately.

[Turt]

That's just netcode lag. The hitboxes are surprisingly accurate this time around. Way better than previous souls games

[LongParsnip]

What you are describing is just lag, nothing you can do about the people that live on the moon.

[ressenmacher]

You're not experiencing an issue with the hitbox, but rather an issue with latency.

Basically, you are where you just were a split-second ago on your opponent's screen, and what they see is what counts for hit detection. So if you're in range on their screen but not on yours, they can still hit you. However, dealing damage is checked by your game, so if you're in a roll or other iframes you can avoid the damage.

[Ðurzo]

Originally posted by Xengre:

Yup, from what I have seen modders check it uses a very poor bounding sphere volume that isn't physically accurate (such as jumps being so inaccurate lifting above knees and head significantly that people think jump has iframes when it does not). Additional weapon and attack hitboxes and garbage netcode plus any latency issues... is a recipe for not the most accurate hit detection unfortunately.

Citations?

If true then why have a talisman that reduces the damage of headshots?

EG: Crucible Knot Talisman.

Most modern games have several layers of volumes that perform different functions such as ragdoll physics. Nothing in this game leads me to believe it's using a single capsule for hitbox detection.

[edit]

It's totally not using single sphere for hitbox detection:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U6zNZL1KTI

[Climhazzard]

There's nothing wrong with the hitboxes, it's just lag. You can't rely on visuals for spacing unless you have a really good connection with your opponent, dodge attacks if you're not sure. Some people will test their latency to their opponent before deciding between spacing or dodging.

[Ðurzo]

Originally posted by Climhazzard:

There's nothing wrong with the hitboxes, it's just lag. You can't rely on visuals for spacing unless you have a really good connection with your opponent, dodge attacks if you're not sure. Some people will test their latency to their opponent before deciding between spacing or dodging.

Exactly.

Peer to peer networking has always been dependent on the hosts connection and how stable it is.

[Xengre]

Originally posted by Đurzo:

Originally posted by Xengre:

Yup, from what I have seen modders check it uses a very poor bounding sphere volume that isn't physically accurate (such as jumps being so inaccurate lifting above knees and head significantly that people think jump has iframes when it does not). Additional weapon and attack hitboxes and garbage netcode plus any latency issues... is a recipe for not the most accurate hit detection unfortunately.

Citations?

If true then why have a talisman that reduces the damage of headshots?

EG: Crucible Knot Talisman.

Most modern games have several layers of volumes that perform different functions such as ragdoll physics. Nothing in this game leads me to believe it's using a single capsule for hitbox detection.

That would still work because of how the bounding sphere shifts.

Basically, when you jump the sphere shifts up after a few frames to around your knees and higher meaning your feet cannot be hit. Of course, this means your head is still in the sphere as it shifts up.

Usually, how it is usually setup is you have a basic bounding check such as a sphere, box, oriented box, etc. and if stuff passes this check for collision status then it goes to sub-elements to check in more detail (each leg, or entire lower body, head, chest, arms, or however they have it divided for efficiency and/or accuracy). If it doesn't pass the first check cause the bounding volume is lifted then it never goes into the sub-element checks hence "pseudo iframes" (really for lower region). The reason this happens is for the sake of processing (on hardware) and network (when necessary) efficiency. After all, rather than doing hit detection for tight accurate bounding volume (hitboxes/spheres/etc.) for 2 legs, 2 arms, a torso, hip, head every single loop through detection they could just do it for 1 less accurate bounding volume and then when a collision is detected at that point do a more refined detection. Sometimes it will even be layered (within a physical region, not passing? no detection if split up large physical regions... or big box for person, then big box for legs/torso + arms/head, then refined ones for each body part per detection, or whatever other object/entity is hit human or not).

Now for Elden Ring it seems they take this a bit further if I'm interpreting the bounding volumes shown in the videos I've seen including the one I will link below. When you jump not only does the bounding volume for the largest outer volume shift up but it also disables some sub-volumes so that even if it goes inside detecting it will still not register for the sub-volumes and only for the still active volumes during the jump. This is probably to make it more reliable if they found it to be problematic with shoddy unrefined attacks from enemies (such as some ground based attacks) when jumping during testing so they just did this as a sloppy quick solution and moved on rather than refining each lower oriented/ground based attack.

Here is a video I found that is actually very convenient. Just found it while looking for something to showcase what I'm talking about for you as I had seen other less clear videos that might be harder to grasp to this detail for some people (not you specifically since you seem to have some degree of insight) so this is convenient.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zdbqTHtnr4

Also on this subject for those curious here is another poster that has done additional testing for some weapon hit detection (they have more than one video on this):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jSV8N1VG5g
Weapon volumes are honestly pretty gross.
Also here come's the Noble Slender Sword pvp meta lol

[Ðurzo]

Originally posted by Xengre:

Originally posted by Đurzo:

Citations?

If true then why have a talisman that reduces the damage of headshots?

EG: Crucible Knot Talisman.

Most modern games have several layers of volumes that perform different functions such as ragdoll physics. Nothing in this game leads me to believe it's using a single capsule for hitbox detection.

That would still work because of how the bounding sphere shifts.

Basically, when you jump the sphere shifts up after a few frames to around your knees and higher meaning your feet cannot be hit. Of course, this means your head is still in the sphere as it shifts up.

Usually, how it is usually setup is you have a basic bounding check such as a sphere, box, oriented box, etc. and if stuff passes this check for collision status then it goes to sub-elements to check in more detail (each leg, or entire lower body, head, chest, arms, or however they have it divided for efficiency and/or accuracy). If it doesn't pass the first check cause the bounding volume is lifted then it never goes into the sub-element checks hence "pseudo iframes" (really for lower region). The reason this happens is for the sake of processing (on hardware) and network (when necessary) efficiency. After all, rather than doing hit detection for tight accurate bounding volume (hitboxes/spheres/etc.) for 2 legs, 2 arms, a torso, hip, head every single loop through detection they could just do it for 1 less accurate bounding volume and then when a collision is detected at that point do a more refined detection. Sometimes it will even be layered (within a physical region, not passing? no detection if split up large physical regions... or big box for person, then big box for legs/torso + arms/head, then refined ones for each body part per detection, or whatever other object/entity is hit human or not).

Now for Elden Ring it seems they take this a bit further if I'm interpreting the bounding volumes shown in the videos I've seen including the one I will link below. When you jump not only does the bounding volume for the largest outer volume shift up but it also disables some sub-volumes so that even if it goes inside detecting it will still not register for the sub-volumes and only for the still active volumes during the jump. This is probably to make it more reliable if they found it to be problematic with shoddy unrefined attacks from enemies (such as some ground based attacks) when jumping during testing so they just did this as a sloppy quick solution and moved on rather than refining each lower oriented/ground based attack.

Here is a video I found that is actually very convenient. Just found it while looking for something to showcase what I'm talking about for you as I had seen other less clear videos that might be harder to grasp to this detail for some people (not you specifically since you seem to have some degree of insight) so this is convenient.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zdbqTHtnr4

Also on this subject for those curious here is another poster that has done additional testing for some weapon hit detection (they have more than one video on this):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jSV8N1VG5g
Weapon volumes are honestly pretty gross.
Also here come's the Noble Slender Sword pvp meta lol

I hate to burst your bubble but...

The hitbox sphere that modders found is the hitbox for the Opaline Bubbletear which creates a temp. sphere of protection around you.

You're putting way too much theory crafting into this.

[edit]

Just watched the first video you linked and like I suspected, it's a [capsule manikin] they're using for the hitboxes, not a single sphere.

However, it is interesting that through 'left over dev funcitons' they could read the various states of each hitbox in realtime.

[Xengre]

Originally posted by Đurzo:

I hate to burst your bubble but...

The hitbox sphere that modders found is the hitbox for the Opaline Bubbletear which creates a temp. sphere of protection around you.

You're putting way too much theory crafting into this.

[edit]

Just watched the first video you linked and like I suspected, it's a [capsule manikin] they're using for the hitboxes, not a single sphere.

However, it is interesting that through 'left over dev funcitons' they could read the various states of each hitbox in realtime.

This could be the case but I suspect you might be mistaken. Perhaps the box is also used for this but prior videos have been using it as well to test hitbox detection. It would be very stupid if it wasn't used as a bounding volume to reduce collision checks before sub-checks, but this is FROM... so who knows, perhaps you're right and other people were misinterpreting the application since the only way to fully check would be to bypass that bounding volume entirely to see if it fails checking sub-sections or get the source code.

Yes, I was pleased by the dev function discovery as well since it brought us fairly accurate info so early after release rather than more crude testing.

EDIT: Maybe I misread your post and you misunderstood mine. From what I can tell and what the various testers seem to believe the bounding volume is the outer layer initial check. Then if it passes collision check as detected it then checks the capsule mannequin sub-regions. This is what I meant before (post #8 that is), though tbh I initially thought they were even sloppier and using a single bounding sphere and no sub-regions (initial post) until I found that video while finding a source for you in the middle of typing that particular reply. I hadn't considered the arrow headshot talisman until you mentioned it as I haven't really used it and it slipped my memory.

[Ðurzo]

Originally posted by Xengre:

Originally posted by Đurzo:

I hate to burst your bubble but...

The hitbox sphere that modders found is the hitbox for the Opaline Bubbletear which creates a temp. sphere of protection around you.

You're putting way too much theory crafting into this.

[edit]

Just watched the first video you linked and like I suspected, it's a [capsule manikin] they're using for the hitboxes, not a single sphere.

However, it is interesting that through 'left over dev funcitons' they could read the various states of each hitbox in realtime.

This could be the case but I suspect you might be mistaken. Perhaps the box is also used for this but prior videos have been using it as well to test hitbox detection. It would be very stupid if it wasn't used as a bounding volume to reduce collision checks before sub-checks, but this is FROM... so who knows, perhaps you're right and other people were misinterpreting the application since the only way to fully check would be to bypass that bounding volume entirely to see if it fails checking sub-sections or get the source code.

Yes, I was pleased by the dev function discovery as well since it brought us fairly accurate info so early after release rather than more crude testing.

EDIT: Maybe I misread your post and you misunderstood mine. From what I can tell and what the various testers seem to believe the bounding volume is the outer layer initial check. Then if it passes collision check as detected it then checks the capsule mannequin sub-regions. This is what I meant before (post #8 that is), though tbh I initially thought they were even sloppier and using a single bounding sphere and no sub-regions (initial post) until I found that video while finding a source for you in the middle of typing that particular reply. I hadn't considered the arrow headshot talisman until you mentioned it as I haven't really used it and it slipped my memory.

I think you just overlooked that there are two sets of hitboxes.

There's the capsule manikin and then there's the bubble:

Hitbox view:

https://imgur.com/a/rsqa65K

Normal view:

https://imgur.com/kjlsj6v

They line up exactly.

[edit[

Screenshot of the capsule manikin hitboxes so other people don't get confused:

https://imgur.com/Mx82ATm

[Xengre]

Originally posted by Đurzo:

I think you just overlooked that there are two sets of hitboxes.

There's the capsule manikin and then there's the bubble:

Hitbox view:

https://imgur.com/a/rsqa65K

Normal view:

https://imgur.com/kjlsj6v

They line up exactly.

[edit[

Screenshot of the capsule manikin hitboxes so other people don't get confused:

https://imgur.com/Mx82ATm

Ah, so this is what you thought. Then no, you misunderstood me.

The giant sphere volume may overlap with the same space as some shields like the Bubbletear however there should be no relation other than possibly the origin point for drawing the bubble as it isn't needed for detection of the bubble. Regarding the bubble, there will simply be a flag active / inactive. If active when calculating dmg it will reduce it in the formula otherwise likely given a value of 1.

There is no need at all for any collision detection for the bubble, itself. The bubble does not pop for being punctured but for dmg taken to one of the underlying sub-sections. You can confirm testing with the falling giant cleavers in Black Knife Catacombs which will not pop the bubble at all unless they directly hit your body. It would be pointless to detect it because it either is active or is not since it has no physics, itself, and isn't an actual shield but a dmg reduction effect with a bubble visual.

The large sphere volume is the outer layer of a BVH (bounding volume hierarchy). It saves computation on more refined collision volumes while doubling as the first level of the hierarchy. The sub-sections would be lower levels of the BVH after the first level detects a collision.

Example:

Only needs to detect 1 collision with a basic primitive sphere making efficient processing.
https://imgur.com/a/rsqa65K

If collision detected check collision against capsule mannequin
18 oriented capsules volume primitives for tighter fit https://imgur.com/Mx82ATm

- If hit calculate dmg including flag (ex. multiply dmg by 0.1 if active, else 1 if not) for bubble tear effect or not.

Thus you are normally only checking for 1 collision normally rather than 18 and only check the 18 subsections if the 1 passes thus saving on computation and data resources. Not sure if you are familiar with BVHs, too, like you were with the capsules.

This one and at least one other I saw also got the same impression from the dev function that this was for collision detection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5EfuB6axZI
I'm not sure if it was based on pure assumption when activating it or if the dev function actually has a descriptive name for it leading to this belief but it fits basic optimization concepts.

[Xengre]

Originally posted by gh0stwizard:

This is not due hit boxes, lol. This is because of netcode, google DS 1 pvp system, specifically backstabs.

Why you! Dangit I clearly shot myself in the foot skimming and not reading properly or idk tired but you are right. I locked onto hit detection and air when none of my posts were even related to the particular issue of OP. Oops...

[Ðurzo]

Originally posted by Xengre:

Originally posted by Đurzo:

I think you just overlooked that there are two sets of hitboxes.

There's the capsule manikin and then there's the bubble:

Hitbox view:

https://imgur.com/a/rsqa65K

Normal view:

https://imgur.com/kjlsj6v

They line up exactly.

[edit[

Screenshot of the capsule manikin hitboxes so other people don't get confused:

https://imgur.com/Mx82ATm

Ah, so this is what you thought. Then no, you misunderstood me.

The giant sphere volume may overlap with the same space as some shields like the Bubbletear however there should be no relation other than possibly the origin point for drawing the bubble as it isn't needed for detection of the bubble. Regarding the bubble, there will simply be a flag active / inactive. If active when calculating dmg it will reduce it in the formula otherwise likely given a value of 1.

There is no need at all for any collision detection for the bubble, itself. The bubble does not pop for being punctured but for dmg taken to one of the underlying sub-sections. You can confirm testing with the falling giant cleavers in Black Knife Catacombs which will not pop the bubble at all unless they directly hit your body. It would be pointless to detect it because it either is active or is not since it has no physics, itself, and isn't an actual shield but a dmg reduction effect with a bubble visual.

The large sphere volume is the outer layer of a BVH (bounding volume hierarchy). It saves computation on more refined collision volumes while doubling as the first level of the hierarchy. The sub-sections would be lower levels of the BVH after the first level detects a collision.

Example:

Only needs to detect 1 collision with a basic primitive sphere making efficient processing.
https://imgur.com/a/rsqa65K

If collision detected check collision against capsule mannequin
18 oriented capsules volume primitives for tighter fit https://imgur.com/Mx82ATm

- If hit calculate dmg including flag (ex. multiply dmg by 0.1 if active, else 1 if not) for bubble tear effect or not.

Thus you are normally only checking for 1 collision normally rather than 18 and only check the 18 subsections if the 1 passes thus saving on computation and data resources. Not sure if you are familiar with BVHs, too, like you were with the capsules.

This one and at least one other I saw also got the same impression from the dev function that this was for collision detection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5EfuB6axZI
I'm not sure if it was based on pure assumption when activating it or if the dev function actually has a descriptive name for it leading to this belief but it fits basic optimization concepts.

It's really hard to tell what the yellow state represents as from what I can see it could be a multitude of things including what you've speculated it to be.

You see it as a sphere surrounding the character, you see a tiny one connected at the root hip bone of characters, you see it encapsulating weapons, you see them connected at every joint in giants, etc.

I suppose only time will tell...

[edit]

Do you have a link to where I can learn to pull up the dev functions?

I want to know what it means!