The amount of reused bosses and enemies is ridiculous

[kestar]

I wish the world was 1/2 as big, but with unique encounters rather than the huge amount of rehashed bosses/enemies that we have today.

After the capital it becomes glaringly obvious. It feels very cheap and rushed.

How many variations of gargoyle, tree sentinel, erdtree avatars, magma dragons, dragons do I have to fight before it gets old?

[kestar]

Noeat eredeti hozzászólása:

kestar eredeti hozzászólása:

That is a pretty dumb take on this discussion. It's an exaggeration with the aim to trivialize the topic and you know it.

you dont see it? whole this topic is absurd

No it's not absurd. I just said it earlier. The last 2 areas of the game : Mountaintop of the GIants and Crumbling Azula do not offer anything new in terms of fresh enemies. Pretty much every mob you encounter is a rehashed variation of some asset in the previous regions.

So I ask myself, what is the point of Mountaintop of the Giants and Crumbling Azula if they don't offer anything new? Just to walk through two more admittedly very beautiful places from an artistic point of view at the end of which there are a couple of more bossfights?

The game could have ended right after the Leyndell capital (not Ashen Capital) and it would have been just fine. Just have it such that you can enter the Erdtree right after Morgott instead of having to go through two more pointless areas.

But I guess these day if you sell an AAA game at the 50-60 EUR price point, then it is expected that you offer 80 - 100 hours of content, hence the empty padding present in many games nowadays.

It's totally fine for a game to be only 40-50 hours long, you know, as long as the experience is constantly at a high level of quality.

[Jim Joe Kelly]

You know what? I'm just going to say it, the repeating enemies and bosses didnt bother me.

[vamirez]

kestar eredeti hozzászólása:

Noeat eredeti hozzászólása:

you dont see it? whole this topic is absurd

No it's not absurd. I just said it earlier. The last 2 areas of the game : Mountaintop of the GIants and Crumbling Azula do not offer anything new in terms of fresh enemies. Pretty much every mob you encounter is a rehashed variation of some asset in the previous regions.

So I ask myself, what is the point of Mountaintop of the Giants and Crumbling Azula if they don't offer anything new? Just to walk through two more admittedly very beautiful places from an artistic point of view at the end of which there are a couple of more bossfights?

The game could have ended right after the Leyndell capital (not Ashen Capital) and it would have been just fine. Just have it such that you can enter the Erdtree right after Morgott instead of having to go through two more pointless areas.

But I guess these day if you sell an AAA game at the 50-60 EUR price point, then it is expected that you offer 80 - 100 hours of content, hence the empty padding present in many games nowadays.

It's totally fine for a game to be only 40-50 hours long, you know, as long as the experience is constantly at a high level of quality.

Even if these two zones have no new enemy types, they do have content - mountaintops has the usual open world locations including ruins, a crypt, the invisible bridge to the sorcerer tower etc. as well as new items; optional challenges. And Azula is a challenging legacy dungeon. That's their point. It's fine if you say that you find the game too long. But for those who enjoy more game - there's more game. I don't see this as "empty padding" or "lower quality" at all.

[Wicked Sick]

no lag in elden ring anymo eredeti hozzászólása:

kestar eredeti hozzászólása:

I wish the world was 1/2 as big, but with unique encounters rather than the huge amount of rehashed bosses/enemies that we have today.

After the capital it becomes glaringly obvious. It feels very cheap and rushed.

How many variations of gargoyle, tree sentinel, erdtree avatars do I have to fight before it gets old?

go back to ds3 than

First time I see someone using "than" instead of "then". Usually is the other way around.

[TheMetalCorpser]

RubbaKeys16k eredeti hozzászólása:

The problem here is a whole lot of people taking the subjective concept of whether the frequency of recurring bosses is too much, and thinking they can argue that their opinion is right and others are wrong. And then the usual opinionated toxics like this Metal Corpser turning it into a barrage of "you don't agree with me so you're an idiot." Shame really, it was such a worthwhile thread. That was sarcasm, Metal Corpser, you won't understand it.

Who are you?

hemorrhage911 eredeti hozzászólása:

This game isn't that gigantic though, with the landscapes, it does a good job making it look gigantic though. You condense it down any more, then you end up with Dark Souls. I don't mind the repeated bosses in dungeons, they all tend to have new obstacles to overcome - but repeated bosses in more expanded areas like Castle Morne is disappointing - that felt like an area with enough lore attached to it to have a unique boss placed there rather than an enemy you eventually find in dungeons and in the open world later on.

At the same time, this game does a good job giving context clues or outright telling you why there are repeated bosses - I'm drawing a blank on the boss at the castle in Atlus Plateau, but there is a good lore reasons as to why he invades you in multiple areas of the game. The avatars you face at the trees, their reasoning is basically in their name. So this isn't as bad as some go on about, and the dragons have enough variation for me to enjoy fighting them (though I find them much more fun on foot rather than horseback)

The land to cover in this title is much larger than any other souls entry. That's what I meant. It's mostly extra padded out distance with some random ingredients to gather or places to ride Torrent to but for argument's sake it is the biggest distance wise.

That's where we'll have to disagree. Using the excuse of "lore" to add duplicates always bugged me. Even in older games. There's a limitation of how much time and money they have during development but there's always ways to make games turn out better. Same was true of DS1-3 as well. Those games could have been done better in several areas as well.

No game should ever be exempt from being criticized. And if you love a game you should criticize it just like those who hate/dislike it. Because otherwise you'll just wind up parading it around as perfect. That last bit isn't directed at you specifically but aimed at people in general who become weird with games that they love.

[kestar]

vamirez eredeti hozzászólása:

Even if these two zones have no new enemy types, they do have content - mountaintops has the usual open world locations including ruins, a crypt, the invisible bridge to the sorcerer tower etc. as well as new items; optional challenges.

Ah yes, ruins and crypts. Especially crypts. There are way too many crypts in this game. Caves too. And they all look almost the same.

[kestar]

gh0stwizard eredeti hozzászólása:

kestar eredeti hozzászólása:

No it's not absurd. I just said it earlier. The last 2 areas of the game : Mountaintop of the GIants and Crumbling Azula do not offer anything new in terms of fresh enemies. Pretty much every mob you encounter is a rehashed variation of some asset in the previous regions.

May I enter to your discussion. Mountaintop has one new mob - blue archers. Azula has an unique enemy -- fat and tall werewolves or whatever they are, which kill anyone with 2 hits. Two of them standing at back of Dragon Temple on a separated platform (e.g. you jump off from this platform to fire this grace at first time).

But of course, these new enemies by count at 10-15% within all locations just a cheap work. Except snakes, bubble-guys and dancing girls (+ two enemies above) I can't even recall unique enemies tied to a location...

Thanks for mentioning the blue archers and the tall werewolves (aren't those just some sort of Misbegotten dudes? but anyway). I stand corrected.

However, as you yourself have noted, they amount for too little in the new areas.

[David Benioff]

vamirez eredeti hozzászólása:

I said that you said (nice where we are now) that bosses are reused. I never was going on about dungeon bosses specifically, nor did I care whether you wanted to make that exact distinction.

The mini-dungeons continue to come up with new twists, for example (you wanted examples) later on there are a few where two dungeons are cleverly stacked on each other via teleporters or other mechanisms. All your text there about filler with different trash mobs and lazy bosses is factually bs.

It's ok if you don't like the double pursuer. But go on forums and announce "lazy!!" I don't know, man...

No I don't believe pus of man are boss fights. They are repeating tougher, bigger enemy types. That whole distinction between for example, a big knight with a small or big health bar, is of no concern to me. Does the roaming avatar on Haligtree wall have a boss HP bar? If so, why does it matter? It doesn't - you don't like it to be reused there anyway, even though it kinda makes sense to have it there at the big tree. Right?

You repeatedly exclaimed what stupid things I say or how stuped these things are. I called what you say bs. Let's call it even.

I note that this annoys you to no end. And you note that I (while I'm not annoyed) must answer ^^ But I stand by it - your claim that I cannot objectively say that the amount of repeating enemies is not a real issue in the game is wrong. I elaborated on why a few times now. There is no "shameless copy/pasting" going on here, that is just a false claim.

I myself can have the urge to answer in very high detail - I understand. But these text-walls were a bit much o_O

Ok so now we're arguing semantics. Also, if we're going onto these long replies, it's common to reply to the person you're speaking to or it makes it incredibly hard for anyone to follow (prediction: you're gonna say ok, you don't want to continue to ignore what i'm going to say in this reply).

You can start trying to distort what you said (again, I feel like you're not replying to specific messages to avoid me being able to point specific quotes from you since this makes replies go all over the place: very convenient and clever), but what actually happened was: i went on a tirade about bosses being reused (I mentioned avatars, crucible knights, dragons, ulcerated tree spirits) and then i went on to mention that the dungeons were essentially reskinned (I even told you you misunderstood the structure of my sentence: I carefully mentioned bosses up until I mentioned dungeons, where I said that dungeons are eseentially copy pasted with minor tweaks with ridiculously lazy bosses at the end - i did not say the dungeon bosses were reskinned. This was in the reply you ignored because you were too lazy to read it by your own admission).

OK I thought we were arguing as grown ups: if I'm pointing out a trend (e.g. there is a trend of reusing erdtree avatars (undisputable)), pointing out a counter example does not negate a trend. This should be obvious. I may be using hyperbolic language (I don't think I did, but I may have to be more specific so you don't conveniently interpret what I say literally). I'm not saying that all dungeons are copy paste (and I literally did not say that), i'm saying that a lot are essentially the same (again, minor variations do not make meaningful new content). For example, taking twin princes from ds3 and adding a second prince on lorian's back called bothric shooting red lazers at you would not make a new boss fight. Similarly, putting two one shot carts instead of one is not a new concept, just like making the dungeon wider does not make a worthwhile new dungeon. It's the same thing, but slightly tweaked within the same game.
Really? It's factually bs that the bosses in the dungeons are lazy or just mob bosses? Some are gimmicks (the snail was cool, albeit too easy, i.e. it was not thought through enough, i.e. lazy), a lot are mobs (e.g. a knight in a poison pool, two centipedes shooting arrows at you, etc), then some are just very lackluster (falls into the lackluster category i guess) e.g. those cats (and no, putting two cats or a cat with mobs is, again, not a new boss fight. It's a lazy spin on an existing and mediocre boss).

What's this obsession with pointing out that i'm not complaining about other games that have certain lazy design choices? I'm not on the dark souls 2 forum, i didn't make this discussion thread either: we're discussing the topic at hand. Saying 'go complain in the ds2 forum' doesn't negate what i'm saying in the slightest.

The fact that the lore can be made to excuse lazy rehashes does not make up for the fact that it's...lazy. Like I said, the pursuer is following the bearer of the curse so it makes sense that he follows you around Drangleic. It's still very lazy to have a 'tough enemy' encounter by just recycling one you've already fought. It was cool the first few times, it's not cool the 6th time. I love Dark Souls 2 and I have no problem pointing out a lot of the bad design choices in it. It's still a masterpiece.

And ok sure, bs vs stupid is on par, i agree.

I will repeat it as long as you claim there is some objective measure here: no, when there is copy paste (no not necessarily literally: minor tweaking = the same boss) to this extent and that people are complaining about it, no: you can't claim that it's objectively not a problem. If people are complaining about it, that means some people are bothered by it. Hence, there is no such objective standard. Simple logical implications. If it were objectively a reasonable amount of rehash (keep in mind, to anyone else reading, that means 15+ avatars, 15+ crucible knights, 15+ flying dragons, 5+ulcerated tree spirits, innumerable mob boss fights), then no one would be complaining about it.

PS: let's note that I am giving specifics to counter your points and you're just saying the equivalent of 'no you're objectively/factually wrong'. That's why my replies are this long.

[David Benioff]

vamirez eredeti hozzászólása:

David Benioff eredeti hozzászólása:

Yes, there is no objective measure of too much/not enough variety of enemies: nice job stealing what i've been saying. You've been claiming the opposite lol.

Not what I did there ;) Nice try tho ^^

"There is not objectively too much reuse of assets in the game, even if you think there is.". I think you would need to actually explain why that statement is more valid than "there is objectively too much reuse of assets in the game, even if you think there isn't'. I can literally reply 'no u' to your claim and it's just as sound as your claim, except i can admit that they're both just opinions and that's all they can ever be. I'm not claiming my opinion is objectively correct.

[David Benioff]

vamirez eredeti hozzászólása:

kestar eredeti hozzászólása:

No it's not absurd. I just said it earlier. The last 2 areas of the game : Mountaintop of the GIants and Crumbling Azula do not offer anything new in terms of fresh enemies. Pretty much every mob you encounter is a rehashed variation of some asset in the previous regions.

So I ask myself, what is the point of Mountaintop of the Giants and Crumbling Azula if they don't offer anything new? Just to walk through two more admittedly very beautiful places from an artistic point of view at the end of which there are a couple of more bossfights?

The game could have ended right after the Leyndell capital (not Ashen Capital) and it would have been just fine. Just have it such that you can enter the Erdtree right after Morgott instead of having to go through two more pointless areas.

But I guess these day if you sell an AAA game at the 50-60 EUR price point, then it is expected that you offer 80 - 100 hours of content, hence the empty padding present in many games nowadays.

It's totally fine for a game to be only 40-50 hours long, you know, as long as the experience is constantly at a high level of quality.

Even if these two zones have no new enemy types, they do have content - mountaintops has the usual open world locations including ruins, a crypt, the invisible bridge to the sorcerer tower etc. as well as new items; optional challenges. And Azula is a challenging legacy dungeon. That's their point. It's fine if you say that you find the game too long. But for those who enjoy more game - there's more game. I don't see this as "empty padding" or "lower quality" at all.

Wouldn't you agree the variety of encounters in farrum azula is significantly lower than even other regions in the game? It's just hallways filled with the same enemy over and over as far as I can remember (i.e. no nuance in terms of the encounters, no puzzling rooms to figure out with like ranged enemies or ambushes or anything). I don't even mind that, I just the encounters were boring, even though it looks amazing.

[State Line Crosser]

hemorrhage911 eredeti hozzászólása:

No it wouldn't, because again, there are actual written lore IN THE GAME along with in your face context clues why many bosses appear where they do. Erdtree Avatar, it's literally in the name why it's in that spot. The boss at the castle in Atlus Plateau invades you multiple times, that's not a reused boss, it's literally the same boss trying to slaughter you across the map. It's also in his name. There's also lore reasons for Margit and Morgott (Guess why the shackle works on both of them)

I respect the story/lore Fromsoftware wrote. You don't have to like it from a gameplay standpoint, that's subjective and you have a right to dislike it of course. But I would say it will help greatly if you actually read up on what is going on in the games world and it will shed some light onto why you're facing some enemies repeatedly.

Here's a big shocker, child. I am well aware of the lore of the game. I have not once told you the lore is wrong for the game. I have only said one factual statement that I will put here one last time:

Lore is not an excuse for reuse, overuse, bad game design, etc.

David Benioff eredeti hozzászólása:

I mean it makes sense lore wise for the pursuer to appear, what, 6 times in dark souls 2 sofs. That still comes off as lazy and irritating after like the third one

Precisely. Lore is not a counterpoint to reused enemies no matter how many times it is said.

[Das Big Hippo]

Welcome to literally every open world game.

[vamirez]

Oh boy - I tried with my last answer to get away from the semantics, for both our sakes, but it is obviously not possible with you...

"I feel like you're not replying to specific messages to avoid me being able to point specific quotes from you"
Nope, I don't have any weird tactics going on here, m8.

"I carefully mentioned bosses up until I mentioned dungeons"
Yes. And then I said that you switched up the narrative by extending it to dungeons. That's all.

"again, minor variations do not make meaningful new content"
But it's not just minor variations. You try to paint a picture here that does not hold up.

"Really? It's factually bs that the bosses in the dungeons are lazy or just mob bosses?"
Yes. I repeat: It's an unrealistic, unreasonable expectation to have that many completely different bosses, and they actually changed them up with new abilities. Also it's really not like that you run into the same boss in quick succession or anything. If the "crypt guardian" annoys you - okay - but to have a fire one and a magic one as a miniboss in an optional area is not an issue. Look - if all ten(?) crypts (note theres also caves, crystal caves, mines and hero's graves) just had the same layout, maybe one more room, and the same boss, each time - I'd totally be on your side. But this is not case and actually far from the truth.

"What's this obsession with pointing out that i'm not complaining about other games"
There is no obsession. It's a reasonable point to make that what you expect of this game is unreasonable and not present for any game.

"I love Dark Souls 2"
Me too!
At first I hated the pursuer. When I play now, I kill them all - it's fun ^^

"when there is copy paste (no not necessarily literally: minor tweaking = the same boss) to this extent"
The actual extent is objectively not an issue.

[Shreddy]

Weird thread, I love this game and would consider myself a fanboy but it doesn’t hurt me to say the game clearly reuses enemies at the end.

[vamirez]

David Benioff eredeti hozzászólása:

Wouldn't you agree the variety of encounters in farrum azula is significantly lower than even other regions in the game? It's just hallways filled with the same enemy over and over as far as I can remember (i.e. no nuance in terms of the encounters, no puzzling rooms to figure out with like ranged enemies or ambushes or anything). I don't even mind that, I just the encounters were boring, even though it looks amazing.

How about no? It's not just hallways at all - lol :)