to those who think the quest design isn't a problem. i have a question for you

[DUKE NUKEM]

how was i supposed to know -using in game logic only- that the merchant at the start of the game would have the snap emote needed to get blaidd to come down.

edit:
right so as i thought, none of you have an answer that contains any logic, the answer is "you randomly stumble upon it"

that's fine in a linear fromsoft game.....but not in an open world.

[Arlen]

DUKE NUKEM eredeti hozzászólása:

how was i supposed to know -using in game logic only- that the merchant at the start of the game would have the snap emote needed to get blaidd to come down.

edit:
right so as i thought, none of you have an answer that contains any logic, the answer is "you randomly stumble upon it"

that's fine in a linear fromsoft game.....but not in an open world.

OMG dude, there is a smithing anvil right next to him. very convenient when you want to upgrade weapons, and sell useless items, and if you pay attention, you will see now options to talk to him. Your hand will NOT be held playing this game, there will be no "icons" over their head signifying "talk to me" - you are on your own to forge your own path, this is the true meaning of "open world"

[TheShadowHatter]

Tom eredeti hozzászólása:

TheShadowHatter eredeti hozzászólása:

You're kind of wrong though. Kale sells a note about the waypoint ruins that literally reads "Someone lurks among the waypoint ruins on the roads through Limgrave." Which, when you go there, hear the howling, and search for the source of the howling to find a giant dude atop the ruins, your brain juices should be flowing and go "Oh hey! that note from Kale said I would find someone lurking, perhaps I should return to Kale to ask about this dude I just found" which in turn continues the mini questline into meeting Blaidd for the first time. So yes, there is an item description relating to this quest and the very merchant who you need to talk to in order to get the emote sells you the item with said description.

Doesn't that note refer to Sellen?

Ah you're right I got Mistwood ruins confused with Waypoint ruins by mistake. I suppose since they're both next to each other maybe the devs would hope you'd explore the Mistwood as well, but I'll admit I was wrong on that one my mistake.

[Janthis]

Hammer_Squirrel eredeti hozzászólása:

Johnny_B_80 eredeti hozzászólása:

Except for the small problem that it's entirely possible for the player to have access to Roundtable Hold already, and have no reason to go back to Kale.

I gave a perfectly good reason why I went back to Kale.

If you're a medieval adventurer and you don't have access to the internet and you don't understand something maybe it makes sense to talk to the three people you know and see if they know something.

Do you even know that the howling is worth investigating, and that you need to look up and see Blaidd? Is there any hint given that it's even possible to ask someone about it? And not just someone, but only one specific NPC? Your character has clearly noted the howling as something unusual (hence the option to ask about it), but the game doesn't give the *player* this information. You might even miss it, or think it's part of the area's background noises. Which is again fine if you agree with From's way of treating these quests more like secrets or easter eggs, whose solving relies on players communicating with each other and looking up guides. But to insist that they're perfectly logical or solvable by yourself is just disingenuous.

This sense that a player should only have a single interaction with an NPC and that any other interaction needs to be specifically prompted by the game because it doesn't conform to your game-enjoying-heuristic only allows for a very rigid quest structure, and any design that doesn't conform to that doesn't somehow become illogical.

Again, you're either being thick headed or arguing in bad faith. We're talking about a merchant NPC whose dialogue you've already exhausted and from whom you already purchased all the stuff you needed. If you have access to Roundtable Hold and other parts of the game, what would the logical reason be to go back to him?

Getting magic information on where to go next at every turn is highly illogical, to the point where attempts to weave the in-game walkthrough into the lore is applauded, because you have to go out of your way to make that stuff make sense while maintaining any semblance of a fourth wall.

That's why I and others said it would be nice to have a journal of some sort. Your character could, for example, note that he heard a strange howling in Mistwood and should ask someone nearby about it. Nobody's talking about quest arrows, and I think it's telling you cannot accept a middle ground between handholding and giving no clues whatsoever, letting the players rely on random chance.

It's not like the game is forcing you to do any of this stuff. No other game makes it as easy to ignore the quest structure if you dislike it, but for some reason it still can't exist because you personally don't like it.

I wouldn't mind if they were occasional secrets/easter eggs which seems to be what they're aiming for. But From really overdoes this stuff in all of their games, with the pretty clear intention that players should rely on messages and guides. I'm not a big fan of the system.

[DUKE NUKEM]

jasonbarron eredeti hozzászólása:

DUKE NUKEM eredeti hozzászólása:

it is wrong of you to think of side quests as secrets

No, it's not. It's the beauty and magic of Elden Ring's design and what helps it tower over the competition like the Erd Tree itself: not everything is just handed to you on a platter like a generic Ubisoft game.

liar. nobody buys this game for it's quest design. nobody

[Melchiah]

DUKE NUKEM eredeti hozzászólása:

how was i supposed to know -using in game logic only- that the merchant at the start of the game would have the snap emote needed to get blaidd to come down.

edit:
right so as i thought, none of you have an answer that contains any logic, the answer is "you randomly stumble upon it"

that's fine in a linear fromsoft game.....but not in an open world.

It's actually not so random, since with him being a merchant and by RPG logic, you would go back to him to trade (and there's also the fact he's at a very convenient spot to warp to).

If you're going to complain about these terrible quest designs, at least do so with a better example, like how you can totally miss Blaidd at Siofra River because that's not a place you'd like to go back to, and if you've already beaten the boss you have absolutely no reason to do so, especially to the spot where he is (you can see him by walking to the boss' arena, but even then chances are you won't even notice). You could've also pointed out to the fact you can speak to Ranni's Doll at a specific bonfire, but she won't answer you the first time you get to said bonfire, which will make the player think "well, maybe it's nothing" and probably never try it again (since you know... it's only at THAT specific spot).

[Typisch]

billybobtexan1000 eredeti hozzászólása:

DUKE NUKEM eredeti hozzászólása:

how was i supposed to know -using in game logic only- that the merchant at the start of the game would have the snap emote needed to get blaidd to come down.

edit:
right so as i thought, none of you have an answer that contains any logic, the answer is "you randomly stumble upon it"

that's fine in a linear fromsoft game.....but not in an open world.

OMG dude, there is a smithing anvil right next to him. very convenient when you want to upgrade weapons, and sell useless items, and if you pay attention, you will see now options to talk to him. Your hand will NOT be held playing this game, there will be no "icons" over their head signifying "talk to me" - you are on your own to forge your own path, this is the true meaning of "open world"

I mostly agree with you, but you can't tell me that anyone has ever used that anvil

[DUKE NUKEM]

Melchiah eredeti hozzászólása:

DUKE NUKEM eredeti hozzászólása:

how was i supposed to know -using in game logic only- that the merchant at the start of the game would have the snap emote needed to get blaidd to come down.

edit:
right so as i thought, none of you have an answer that contains any logic, the answer is "you randomly stumble upon it"

that's fine in a linear fromsoft game.....but not in an open world.

It's actually not so random, since with him being a merchant and by RPG logic, you would go back to him to trade (and there's also the fact he's at a very convenient spot to warp to).

If you're going to complain about these terrible quest designs, at least do so with a better example, like how you can totally miss Blaidd at Siofra River because that's not a place you'd like to go back to, and if you've already beaten the boss you have absolutely no reason to do so, especially to the spot where he is (you can see him by walking to the boss' arena, but even then chances are you won't even notice). You could've also pointed out to the fact you can speak to Ranni's Doll at a specific bonfire, but she won't answer you the first time you get to said bonfire, which will make the player think "well, maybe it's nothing" and probably never try it again (since you know... it's only at THAT specific spot).

no, it is 100% random

you are drawing connections after you know the answer. hindsight bias fallacy

[ZAToM]

DUKE NUKEM eredeti hozzászólása:

you are drawing connections after you know the answer. hindsight bias fallacy

you are seeing the connection after you know the answer, cause you just didnt get it before.
the connection is always there

[DrBobcat]

If you buy everything from Kale, there'd be no reason you'd go back and talk to him again for the typical player. Sometimes, From is really cryptic with its quest design and the fanboys will never, ever admit that it can sometimes go too far. I personally don't mind the general design, but I do think there's some leaps in logic you just can't realistically be expected to make.

It's never acceptable that you HAVE to look something up to reasonably to determine the solution. Thankfully, there are extremely few times where that's the case here. Virtually all of the quests follow some kind of logic or will reward those who are thorough (IE putting people associated with the quest further in the game in places you are likely to go). The tweaks that could be done are minuscule at best. About the only thing I'd REALLY like is a conversation log so I can go back and read something someone said 50 hours ago as a reminder.

[Wobblyshrimp]

DUKE NUKEM eredeti hozzászólása:

how was i supposed to know -using in game logic only- that the merchant at the start of the game would have the snap emote needed to get blaidd to come down.

edit:
right so as i thought, none of you have an answer that contains any logic, the answer is "you randomly stumble upon it"

that's fine in a linear fromsoft game.....but not in an open world.

The answer is simple Mr. Nukem. I noticed very early on that the merchant at the church says different things the more you explore the opening area so I went back to him from time to time to see what he would say. Eventually he gave me the snap emote. That is using in game logic. If you have actually played the other souls games (I dont believe you have, it is likely that somebody else played those games on your account due to your lack of knowledge) you'd know the importance of revisiting with npcs, open world or not.
Thread solved. Praise the sun!

[DUKE NUKEM]

ZAToM eredeti hozzászólása:

DUKE NUKEM eredeti hozzászólása:

you are drawing connections after you know the answer. hindsight bias fallacy

you are seeing the connection after you know the answer, cause you just didnt get it before.
the connection is always there

no, it is fully made up in your imagination. there is no connection between blaidd and the merchant. it is 100% random

[ghost]

is this your first RPG? believe it or not, as you progress, some NPC's may change their wares and dialogue options

[Yard-Dog®]

Johnny_B_80 eredeti hozzászólása:

Spare me the psychoanalysis and faux sympathy.

I'm happy to...if you spare us your dramatic hyperbole.

Johnny_B_80 eredeti hozzászólása:

I like discovering things too, but by following logical trains of clues, not random chance or player messages. That's the approach ER takes and it's fine in small doses, but they really overdo it, just as they have in previous games.

While there exists secrets that are otherwise unreferenced in Elden Ring indeed, the percentage of such compared to those that are referenced is quite infinitesimally small and is quite actually "in small doses."

...talk about overdoing it...

[Jinks]

DUKE NUKEM eredeti hozzászólása:

how was i supposed to know -using in game logic only- that the merchant at the start of the game would have the snap emote needed to get blaidd to come down.

edit:
right so as i thought, none of you have an answer that contains any logic, the answer is "you randomly stumble upon it"

that's fine in a linear fromsoft game.....but not in an open world.

I only found it because came back to buy the cookbooks from Kale I couldn't afford earlier, however I got lucky that I heard howling after I got teleported to Mistwood by Patches before I had returned to Kale.
There's no logic that indicates you should come back to Kale, however it does seem like they intentionally had the teleport put you close enough to hear the howling. (On the topic of your question this is still not something you can piece together with in-game logic.)
I think Fromsoft expects you to go back to Kale after exploring for a while (and hopefully wandering through Mistwood or getting teleported there) to try and buy his cookbooks since you have like no runes the first time talking to him.)
SIDE POINT: You can skip the beginning and still meet Blaidd at Siofra and you only miss the one Somber Smithing 2 from helping him at the Evergaol (I'm guessing someone mentioned that in the last 17 pages but I don't wanna read all that.)

[MrDammit]

I pieced that together via those msgs players put down. Some guy using a snap emote in both places with a vague msg I don't remember made the connection for me. The whole encounter didn't seem weird to me tho and helped me understand how this game plays. i felt a little lost in this story/world at the start but now I feel i'm settling in nicely.