It is bad boss design when the ONLY way to beat them is to have prior-knowledge of moves

[Badass_Ben]

What im referring to, are the attacks some enemies have that are a COMBINATION of
- unblockable
- unrollable
- unsurvivable

And the ONLY valid play is to quickly run away entirely, because the ONLY way you know to do this is if you essentially memorize these attacks

When you examine a boss, consider
"If every time I died, I lost all memory of their moves"
Are there bosses you could simply NEVER beat?
Yes

Bad boss design

I recently watched some DS 1 and 2 gameplay, and what surprised me, is how NOT spammy those bosses were
Something was EITHER blockable or rollable
Nothing just KILLED YOU with no ability to respond or react to it
That is GOOD boss design

[Sneaky_Bugger]

Not sure what´s the fuss about. The combat in Sekiro is way better, no question asked. That being said, the statement "unblockable, unrollable, unsurvivable" is plain wrong. The first boss I died to unintentionally was the Voidform thingy. I didn´t expect the laserbeam as an opener, went in with half HP and got oneshot. All the other bosses to that point were not too hard but then I didn´t rushed into them expecting to survive. Keep your distance, know that they input read and once you got their moveset down a bit, abuse their moveset. I am certain that I don´t even know half of the bosses movesets but I know how to trigger certain moves and how to punish them. So it´s not that hard. For the record, I am running around with medium load and Ghazis Blade or how that pizza cutter is called. So not a super agile build and pretty low APS. Up to Rhadagan I´ve used a Katana but that was just too easy.
I´ve said a few times before, you don´t need to block or roll anything in this game. Simply "sidestep" certain attacks that you trigger with your positioning/item usage and punish the boss. It´s not too hard actually. The same works in Sekiro ( a lot harder) and Nioh 2 (bit harder).

[The Infinite Archiver]

815|Shouldabeen eredeti hozzászólása:

Idk man, raiding in WoW has been popular for a very long time, and the main way you beat bosses in raids is by knowing their move set. I think you're blowing smoke. [/quote]


I mean.. you're not very cultured if you play WoW, just saying XD

[SeeNoWeevil]

The idea that a boss encounter that requires learning is a bad design is one of the worst takes I've seen on this forum. And that's saying something.

[Netsa]

Elden Ring does do them poorly, though. When I'm having to "learn" an encounter in this game, it's usually either "learn how to dodge the one and only attack that's instakilling you every time" or "learn when to poke this duo." Every boss is lopsided. Out of 10 attacks, 9 of them will be harmless, and 1 will be send you back to grass.

[CelestialSlayer]

in this game there is reading of boss moves and memorisation of timing. Like a boss jumps in the air to slam down on you, but you need to memorise the precise timing that the hit will land you cant just start rolling around like an idiot in anticipation. So in fact i would argue that you have to learn to read the tells and then learn the timings to dodge effectively and then you learn when you can get a hit or a charged hit in and roll etc away. Stop whinging. All games require a certain level of skill, any MMO require memorisation of boss and dungeon mechanics similiar to this and so do most games to be honest.

[Baron01]

@OP
I think observing attack patterns, learning timing and tells is part of mastering a boss encounter and it is not bad design. Imagine how boring a game would be if all enemies and bosses have the same move sets. There are ways to indicate/signal that moves are unblockable or non-parriable but that is more about design philosophy of a developer.

I much preferred how Nioh games dealt with these types of attacks compared to Soulsborne games. However, if developers opt for different approach I'm fine with it as long as there is a tell of sort.

My main grip with boss encounters in Elden Ring is two-fold: 1.) Variable timing of their attacks and 2.) Long walk of shame to the boss after dying. There are some bosses or monsters that seems to have similar or same attacks with just different timing. This is something I see as a cheap way to increase difficulty. Other issue, which I absolutely detest is badly placed checkpoints before bosses. Elden Ring is decent in this aspect but there were few boss encounters in catacombs that required long runs. I also disliked Radahn's fight since you had to walk to the teleporter, load in, travers to Radahn all under barrage of his arrows only to get crushed by his insanely large hit box attacks (pre-patch). I do not mind learning a fight but spending a longer time to get there than surviving the engagement enrages me.

[elkapp]

I feel like if devs excluded any kind of trial-and-error logic within their boss design at some point they'll hit a point where bosses looks and play in the same way, which is not ideal given the size of the game (and the fact that it's an actual RPG).

This is true also for bosses that advantage a playstyle over the other, which is why i can excuse Maliketh's DoT even if it's the thing that most of all would bring it down from a hypothetical "top 5 demigod bosses" (different is instead the readability for both phases, which is terrible and add nothing to the game nor the fight itself except for an extra load of cheap difficulty).

[elkapp]

Netsa eredeti hozzászólása:

Elden Ring does do them poorly, though. When I'm having to "learn" an encounter in this game, it's usually either "learn how to dodge the one and only attack that's instakilling you every time" or "learn when to poke this duo." Every boss is lopsided. Out of 10 attacks, 9 of them will be harmless, and 1 will be send you back to grass.

That's definitely ♥♥♥♥ design, though, in my experience, except Malenia i didn't found a boss whose difficulty was so monopolized by 1 or 2 attacks.

[Monk]

Which bosses / moves are you refering to? I suspect this is a build / you problem, the only unblock able attacks I can think of are a couple of the grabs and those can be rolled away from.

[Freak4Leeks]

hey man, it's ok. im sure you'll beat whatever boss kicked your ass enough for you to make this thread. i believe in you bro.

[Dollmaker]

815|Shouldabeen eredeti hozzászólása:

Badass_Ben eredeti hozzászólása:

What im referring to, are the attacks some enemies have that are a COMBINATION of
- unblockable
- unrollable
- unsurvivable

And the ONLY valid play is to quickly run away entirely, because the ONLY way you know to do this is if you essentially memorize these attacks

When you examine a boss, consider
"If every time I died, I lost all memory of their moves"
Are there bosses you could simply NEVER beat?
Yes

Bad boss design

I recently watched some DS 1 and 2 gameplay, and what surprised me, is how NOT spammy those bosses were
Something was EITHER blockable or rollable
Nothing just KILLED YOU with no ability to respond or react to it
That is GOOD boss design

Idk man, raiding in WoW has been popular for a very long time, and the main way you beat bosses in raids is by knowing their move set. I think you're blowing smoke.

And those bosses are so BS thats practically mandatory to use addons... like one guy makes a mistake and the entire raid wipes... how fun

[Noeat]

Dollmaker eredeti hozzászólása:

815|Shouldabeen eredeti hozzászólása:

Idk man, raiding in WoW has been popular for a very long time, and the main way you beat bosses in raids is by knowing their move set. I think you're blowing smoke.

And those bosses are so BS thats practically mandatory to use addons... like one guy makes a mistake and the entire raid wipes... how fun

or you can use eyes.. and not addons.. thats how you actually progress things.. because there arent addons yet for that encounter
was there, did it..

[Terminator]

just GitGud already

[Netsa]

elkapp eredeti hozzászólása:

That's definitely ♥♥♥♥ design, though, in my experience, except Malenia i didn't found a boss whose difficulty was so monopolized by 1 or 2 attacks.

It's been a lot of bosses for me. I'm pointing out some easy bosses, too, just because the same thing applies.

Margit = Spin-to-win
Tree Sentinel = Shield slam AoE
Godrick = Walking fire breath
Rennala = Summon wolves
Tree Spirit = Fire breath
Crucible Knight = 2h Stomp combo (if I roll backwards on accident, I often get stunned so long by the stomp that I can't avoid the slam)
Crucible Knight (Spearman during the Duo fight) = Grab spike
Draconic Sentinel = Lightning slam AoE
Fire Giant = Fire breath
Godskin Noble = Thrust combo (same thing for Godskin Duo, since I really don't take Apostle seriously)
Maliketh = Blackflame flurry
Black Knife Ringleader = Same as above
Gideon = Triple Discus
Elden Beast = Ball of light

I pointed out Fire Breath attacks a lot because I used a shield, and trying to block Fire Breath is an automatic death in most cases. Sometimes the attack lasts long enough to hit you twice even if you don't block it.

Inb4 someone quotes out Rennala...

[Monk]

Noeat eredeti hozzászólása:

Dollmaker eredeti hozzászólása:

And those bosses are so BS thats practically mandatory to use addons... like one guy makes a mistake and the entire raid wipes... how fun

or you can use eyes.. and not addons.. thats how you actually progress things.. because there arent addons yet for that encounter
was there, did it..

Yeah when wow started giving guides and insisting you used add ons for bosses instead of just learning what are pretty easy patterns it went downhill fast in the fun department.

But hey, everyone wants instant gratification and doesn't want to work for it.