It is bad boss design when the ONLY way to beat them is to have prior-knowledge of moves

[Badass_Ben]

What im referring to, are the attacks some enemies have that are a COMBINATION of
- unblockable
- unrollable
- unsurvivable

And the ONLY valid play is to quickly run away entirely, because the ONLY way you know to do this is if you essentially memorize these attacks

When you examine a boss, consider
"If every time I died, I lost all memory of their moves"
Are there bosses you could simply NEVER beat?
Yes

Bad boss design

I recently watched some DS 1 and 2 gameplay, and what surprised me, is how NOT spammy those bosses were
Something was EITHER blockable or rollable
Nothing just KILLED YOU with no ability to respond or react to it
That is GOOD boss design

[Chemistara]

ever tried to jump?

[Lucifer_]

The problem with this game is that you still move like you're in ds 3 but the bosses move like they're in sekiro. Skills that give high mobility like bloodhound's step make the entire game a joke.

[Julymorning]

You are supposed to memorize it. This is what these games are bult around. Git gud

[815|Shouldabeen]

Originally posted by Badass_Ben:

What im referring to, are the attacks some enemies have that are a COMBINATION of
- unblockable
- unrollable
- unsurvivable

And the ONLY valid play is to quickly run away entirely, because the ONLY way you know to do this is if you essentially memorize these attacks

When you examine a boss, consider
"If every time I died, I lost all memory of their moves"
Are there bosses you could simply NEVER beat?
Yes

Bad boss design

I recently watched some DS 1 and 2 gameplay, and what surprised me, is how NOT spammy those bosses were
Something was EITHER blockable or rollable
Nothing just KILLED YOU with no ability to respond or react to it
That is GOOD boss design

Idk man, raiding in WoW has been popular for a very long time, and the main way you beat bosses in raids is by knowing their move set. I think you're blowing smoke.

[trash]

they're intentionally designed that way to make players go through the process of memorizing the moves
it clearly succeeds at that, which makes it passable at worst
it's not 'bad design' just because the learning curve is sharper at the start

a better criticism is that the combination of spammy unintuitive attacks alongside crazy powerful spirit ashes creates an incredibly obvious path of least resistance where it's like ♥♥♥♥ actually learning this dumb fight just summon to take agro and trivialize the boss without ever having to develop a meaningful relation with the encounter

Originally posted by Badass_Ben:

I recently watched some DS 1 and 2 gameplay, and what surprised me, is how NOT spammy those bosses were

ds3 was cobbled together from bloodborne leftovers and it never had cohesive combat as a result
er is a souped up ds3 mod and carries over most of the flaws

it's a shame because sekiro had extremely well animated attack tells despite the fast pace and i was hoping it'd mean this game would be equally intuitive, but it's pretty much the opposite of that

[Badass_Ben]

Originally posted by Julymorning:

You are supposed to memorize it. This is what these games are bult around. Git gud

Memorization aint skill bud

Give me something ACTUALLY to git gud at, like
I dont know
Reading and timing my opponents attacks

[Belegar]

Originally posted by Badass_Ben:

Originally posted by Julymorning:

You are supposed to memorize it. This is what these games are bult around. Git gud

Memorization aint skill bud

Give me something ACTUALLY to git gud at, like
I dont know
Reading and timing my opponents attacks

Actually Memorization is how you build nearly every physical and mental skill.

[nwad]

It's old school arcade fake difficulty. That's how they made money back in the day. Insert coin to continue. You have to spend a ton to master the game. Play any Metal Slug or R-Type game to get the same experience. A real time waster.

[Belegar]

Originally posted by nwad:

It's old school arcade fake difficulty. Insert coin to continue. Play any Metal Slug or R-Type game to get the same experience.

Sure those games will feel identical to playing and experiencing Elden Ring.

[nwad]

Originally posted by Birkegaard:

Sure those games will feel identical to playing and experincing Elden Ring.

The style of difficulty is the same. Unreactable attacks that you have to know about in advance to avoid. AVGN calls them a "beginners's trap" but I prefer the term fake difficulty, because it's not difficult at all once you know how to avoid it.

Come to think of it, a lot of the moves in fighting games are similar. Some moves come out faster than a person can react to, so the player has to 1) know the move exists and 2) predict when it will be used.

[A1 Steaksauce]

Originally posted by Badass_Ben:

Originally posted by Julymorning:

You are supposed to memorize it. This is what these games are bult around. Git gud

Memorization aint skill bud

Give me something ACTUALLY to git gud at, like
I dont know
Reading and timing my opponents attacks

"Reading and timing my opponents attacks"
Soooo you don't want to "memorize" but you want to get to a level where you can read the timing, AKA, memorizing the timing of your opponents attacks? That's literally how you learn to read and time the attacks.

Git. Gud.

[Netsa]

Memorization mechanics aren't inherently bad. I love oldschool side-scrollers. Contra: Hard Corps is one of my favorite games of all time. I just wish:

1. Elden Ring did it better.
2. The community would acknowledge that that's what's going on.

I swear there's a lot of people around here that seem to think they're getting better at the game when they memorize these encounters. You're not, you're getting better at that specific encounter. It doesn't carry over to the rest of the game.

[Noeat]

Originally posted by Badass_Ben:

When you examine a boss, consider
"If every time I died, I lost all memory of their moves"

tf?

[Sonnenbank]

Originally posted by Birkegaard:

Actually Memorization is how you build nearly every physical and mental skill.

True but i doubt many people here understand.

If anyoone has ever been really good at any team sports they would know that you speak truth
skill is always combination of memorization and execution.

you memorize movement in the form of pictures in your brain and then exectue it they way you remember the pictures
the better you get at something the shorter the time is your brain needs to look at the inner picture.

If you done something really often and masterd it your brain still looks at that picture but its so fast you hardly notice your brain doing it (split fractures of seconds only).
But if you learn something new the images in your head can be there for several seconds

simple test:

Try activly grab something in RL and be aware of what your brain does
your brain will draw a picture of you grabbing something before you grab it

[Netsa]

Originally posted by A1 Steaksauce:

read the timing, AKA, memorizing the timing

Not the same thing. "Read the timing" means you can see the timing of the attack with your eyes and then react to it, based on your reflexes. Most of the attacks in Sekiro worked this way. It's what's commonly referred to as a "telegraph." For instance, if I dropped a ball from shoulder height to the floor, you can tell by looking at it (and understanding what gravity is) when that ball is going to hit the floor.

"Memorizing the timing" means knowing the exact timing of the attack by heart, so your reflexes aren't important. For instance, if I aimed a gun at the floor and fired it every 10 seconds, you would be able to tell pretty easily that I'm going to fire the gun after 10 seconds. You can't tell when the bullet is going to hit the floor by just looking at it.