Can we please scrap Ashen Estus?

[Sage]

I've mainly been a pure caster in all souls games and wasn't a fan of the transition to a resource system to cast spells. It wouldn't be so bad however, if I wasn't required to sacrifice healing for said resource.

In Bloodborne, Arcane items cost Quicksilver Bullets to use. When you run out of bullets, you had to sacrifice Health to get more, which meant you had to spend Blood Vials to get that health back. You're juggling a lot of stuff. Thankfully there were lots of ways to utilise Arcane besides just the items, but it wasn't really viable to play purely with spells. A pure caster doesn't really fit with the quick flow of the game anyway so it's not as big of a deal.

DS3 is by far the worst offender because it forces you to allot Estus Flasks to either restore FP or Health. In addition to cutting your healing, both types of flasks are halved when you are a phantom (rounded down, also). So if you have 7 Ashen Estus and 8 Estus, you would have 3 Ashen and 4 Healing as a phantom. This is compared to the 7 Healing anyone who doesn't use Ashen Estus could have, and they probably deal more damage than you do because sorcery is extremely difficult to use compared to weapons in most cases, especially PvP.

And now this same system that punishes casters for no reason is back in Elden Ring and I feel like we are going to have the same problem. Leave the resource, but please add more means of restoring FP than sacrificing healing flasks to make pure casters viable. For example:

- Slow, passive FP regeneration
- FP-restoring items with long use times
- Scrap FP altogether and bring back spell uses (give the same treatment to weapon arts)

[Nope]

Wish they do it like Code Vein, it have good mana system
You want to use spell? Go for it, out of mana? Earn it, either go for high road of parrying and counter or slash your way through, which often make you kill everything before you even recovered a half of it

[Xengre]

Xenos님이 먼저 게시:

Even spells that restore health like Great Heal cost such a massive amount of FP that they aren't worth their own weight in Ashen Estus until like 60+ Faith, and they drain such a gargantuan amount of stamina its impossible to do it mid-combat, making it less useful situationally than a normal Estus. Not to mention that Warmth is just an outright BETTER healing spell outside of combat since it heals 2,100 health at only 25 Faith for only 50 FP, as opposed to Great Heal which costs 65 FP, and even at 60 faith with Yorshka's Chime, only heals 1,358 health.

Estus Flask +0 = +250 HP
Estus Flask +10 = +600 HP
Estus Flask +10 & Estus Ring = +720 HP

Ashen Flask +0 = +80 FP
Ashen Flask +10 = +200 FP
Ashen Flask +10 & Ashen Estus Ring = +240 FP

Med Heal

Restores HP equal to 410% * Spell Buff of used Chime or Talisman
Not affected by miracle rings.
FP Cost: 55

This means a 15 Faith +0 priest chime will have 113 spell buff and heal for 463 health... already healing nearly double that of base rank Estus for almost no faith investment at all in a single cast. However, it should also be noted that 2 Ashen flask +0 would = 160 FP is at least two Med Heal casts, or if you have a mere 5 extra FP due to attunement resulting leftover FP it is very likely many builds will see three casts in actual practice (or if offset by a simple infusion after potentially only a few seconds). You are looking at at least 926 - 1389 health depending on that 5 extra FP for 2 Ashen Flasks vs 500 HP from 2 Estus flasks...

Lets scale that up a bit to later in the game...

Great Heal

Restores HP equal to 550% * Spell Buff of used Chime or Talisman
Not affected by miracle rings.
FP Cost: 65

Priest Chime +10 at 25 Faith would have 132 spell buff. This results in 726 health for a mere 65 FP.

Ashen Flask +10 = +200 FP is 3 Great Heals with 5 FP to spare for +2178 HP

Estus Flask +10 = +600 HP
Estus Flask +10 & Estus Ring = +720 HP
vs
1 Ashen flask = 3x Great Heal = +2178 HP

Of course, we aren't even using FP reduction rings or the Ashen Estus Ring, yet. Even if we assumed they didn't have enough FP and so some of it wasted... it would still easily be 2 heals aka 1x Ashen approximately 2x Estus Flask. This means, in practice, you have room to heal plus room to cast offensive spells/buffs.

That was with low faith... 15 for first example and 25 for the second. To state that Ashen Flask healing efficiency beat Estus Flask would basically be an insult. It crushed it.

What if they had... 40 Faith and a +10 Priest Chime? Great heal would recover +1006 HP in a single cast. Soothing Sunlight would recover +1281 HP in a single cast. Both of these are also AoE if you were playing in co-op per chance. It only continues to climb.

The cast time isn't that long, either. It is a bit longer than Estus but you are recovering significantly more health and using a more efficient means. There obviously should be a trade off. In addition, your typically being at range means you are taking less damage in general, anyways, so thus the actual practice of a caster using Ashen based healing is even more efficient. If you want you can keep a clutch Estus or three on hand.

Xenos님이 먼저 게시:

The problem with the Ashen Estus system is that it was poorly suited for its own environment. DS3 is the only Souls game where missing a spell is a consistent possibility since enemies are fast enough to just sidestep them or rush you down before it casts. You're always in MORE danger having a staff out since it means the instant something inevitably gets in your face, you have zero options to get them out of your face unless you're a Pyromancer running Black Flame.

Could you elaborate on this logic for me? Last I checked, I'm pretty sure melee weapons do not get enemies out of your face any more than magic does since you can't knock them away.

In addition, casters have several good melee ranged spells such as Blackflame, the two sword spells, etc. Quite a few, really if you want to dig into it. In fact, the vast bulk of spells can be cast at close range even without cast reduction equipment, but there are obviously especially suited close range options for those who aren't as skilled.

As for DPS... magic damage is so off the charts you can get up to as high as 4k+ per spell and even 700-2k hits aren't uncommon later on. Melee cannot hope for anything of the sort, much less with the accompaniment of such safety.

Xenos님이 먼저 게시:

The story of the DS3 sorcerer is "kill or be killed". Either you DPS something down before it even gets into range, or you get rushed down too fast to deal with it and end up being forced to waste several cast attempts and estus healing off the damage you took. A BIG example of that is trying to do Abyss Watchers as a pure sorcerer on NG; either you wipe the floor with them or its the most cancerous experience in the entire game because once that second phase Watcher gets going, he NEVER stops sprinting at you full speed and using gap-closing attacks with lingering fire explosions.

Mages aren't any less squishy than melee fighters in DS3, though... HP is cheap to invest in, and should be the main stat initially invested in for ANY build, period. Tossing your first 10ish points into Vigor is not a big deal that early on when you don't have squat for scaling yet and you have time before you start needing more stats for minimum requirements to cast your desired spells.

In addition, why can you not simply dodge an enemy if it gets to close? Is your dodge key broken as a caster or something? If your point is to say you should be able to kill everything before it is ever close than damage taken, healing, etc. are irrelevant because what you are wanting is to be so grossly overpowered everything dies before it gets close... It might be one thing if mages were like in some movies, anime, or other RPGs and either had vanguards on the front line or different types of barrier/terrain spells to block for them but you don't in this game. You have to use the dodge mechanic or at least run. This is expected. Your Abyss Watcher example is no different for a melee user except that melee user is ALWAYS within their attack range while also having less adequate healing unlike the mage who is less likely to get hit, often disengaged from melee only Abyss Watcher's range, and has more heal per healing cast.

Xenos님이 먼저 게시:

I also want to give a shotout to Crystal Sage, who massively resists magic, actively prevents progress into Irithyll until he's beaten, HEAVILY punishes a lack of burst damage with his constant teleporting and cloning, the most powerful spell you can get before his fight is only Great Heavy Soul Spear, and in general is a gargantuan pain in the rear for DS3 casters.

Maybe use a different element then... or melee on this already laughably easy boss? It is resistant to magic but it is weak to, literally, every other attack type in the entire game. Try pyro, dark magic, melee, etc. or be prepared for a slightly less efficient fight as a pure caster. What would you expect from a pyro up against a pyro devil? For it to just melt from your flames?

Xenos님이 먼저 게시:

You have to wear lighter and weaker armor because you can't afford to slot rings like Havels, RoF/Chain, or Steel Plate because you NEED Sage and the respective damage boosting Rings. You can't afford to pump Vitality because you need to put every point you have into Attunement just to squeeze more FP and slots, Int/Faith for decent damage, and Dex for casting speed.

This is actually completely wrong. Due to the armor scaling in the game it makes virtually no difference. That person in Havel's died in 5 hits? Yeah, well your robes are typically going to result in you dying in... 5 hits as well. The issue with how armor and defensive stats work in this game is why the meme "Fashion souls" exists, and it isn't an exaggeration.

Please, if you are using Steel Plate, Havels armor, and Havels Ring why are you doing this to yourself? This definitely does not result in the boost in tankiness you think it does. You don't need to pump up that vitality.

Casting speed is massively overrated, especially in PvE. If you really want to boost it, though, you can use the rings and/or offhands to help some and invest less in dex or just marginally invest in dex so it is a bit faster but you don't need to cut off 0.2 seconds or something. It really will not matter.

Xenos님이 먼저 게시:

Overall, I'm not against having a "give and take" scenario for certain playstyles, thats why the Clutch rings exist, or stuff like the Dusk Crown that gives a huge negative resist to opposing spells. But in general, being a caster just DOESN'T give you any significant advantage that makes up for the loss of your ONLY good healing item in the entire game. In my 500 hours of DS3 PvE and 1,500+ hours of overall Souls PvE, DS3 sorcery pure was the only run I ever quit because it just wasn't fun.

Almost nothing does magic damage in the game, anyways, so not a big loss using Dusk Crown and you can always take it off for the rare encounters that do, as they are probably resistant to magic anyways and you should swap to another spell type if you want to talk efficiency.

Pretty sure trading slight faster Estus for hyper armor uber boosted AoE heals that can dwarf what Estus Flask heals while also having the potential for spells to do 1k+ dmg, or more (Great Soul Dreg goes brrrrr for 1-4k dmg), while playing safely at range in a game where almost every threat is melee, and even the potential to heavily abuse shields as well is a superb trade off.

If you want a sorcery pure run, no pyro/lightning/melee, then you better be ready for some counter fights to take a bit more effort (tho they are also rare as there are only what, 2 bosses particularly resistant? lol Crystal Tutorial Sage and Ocerious).

Casters in DS3 are vastly more broken in PvE than melee and it isn't even close. This is a well established acknowledged fact in the DS3 community. Sadly, its potency does not carry over to PvP but oh well.