The real issue with metabuilds is that there's not a fun or viable alternative.

[tim.]

In pretty much EVERY game there will be a meta that crops up. Usually for casual players, this doesn't matter unless they're interested in competitive/high level gameplay. The current meta weapons are annoying and OP, yeah, but that isn't the issue. The issue is that the majority of the other weapons are either very specific, boring, or underpowered and too weak to be worth using.

Heavy weapons are a bit of a joke. The wind up time to damage ratio is pretty bad, most of the Ashes of War are underwhelming, and the difference between two heavy weapons is hardly discernible. That's why people primarily use dex weapons, which seem in general to have much better speed to damage ratios.

Most of the sorceries are useless. The FP consumption to damage/utility ratio is pretty bad. Why would anyone use the weak spells in PVP? Outside of utility, there is no reason. The strong spells are just the objectively correct choice.

Personally, I don't mind if there's 1% of the weapons/spells/skills being totally busted, what i DO mind is that the remaining 99% is nearly unusable or exhaustively boring to use.

It will take time for From to pull in all the data and make changes to the weapons and all that, i know, I am just hopeful that the balancing will take into consideration that it's OKAY for weapons to be strong. It's better for the weapons to tend to all be viable instead of just having 6 or 7 that define the game.

[A.C.Guernica]

Drukaris eredeti hozzászólása:

tim. eredeti hozzászólása:

The demographic for this post is people who have complaints about the meta of the weapons ...

i mean if thats what you want, okay i guess
but out of curiosity - dont you have better things to do?
do you think theres coming something fruitful, meaningful or enjoyable out of this discussion?
to me it seems like a perfect way to grow bitter about the whole meta thing and make it a bigger deal than it actually is - to your own detriment

Are you suggesting that there is something else they should be doing? Like what?

[ScottyPippin]

tim. eredeti hozzászólása:

In pretty much EVERY game there will be a meta that crops up. Usually for casual players, this doesn't matter unless they're interested in competitive/high level gameplay. The current meta weapons are annoying and OP, yeah, but that isn't the issue. The issue is that the majority of the other weapons are either very specific, boring, or underpowered and too weak to be worth using.

Heavy weapons are a bit of a joke. The wind up time to damage ratio is pretty bad, most of the Ashes of War are underwhelming, and the difference between two heavy weapons is hardly discernible. That's why people primarily use dex weapons, which seem in general to have much better speed to damage ratios.

Most of the sorceries are useless. The FP consumption to damage/utility ratio is pretty bad. Why would anyone use the weak spells in PVP? Outside of utility, there is no reason. The strong spells are just the objectively correct choice.

Personally, I don't mind if there's 1% of the weapons/spells/skills being totally busted, what i DO mind is that the remaining 99% is nearly unusable or exhaustively boring to use.

It will take time for From to pull in all the data and make changes to the weapons and all that, i know, I am just hopeful that the balancing will take into consideration that it's OKAY for weapons to be strong. It's better for the weapons to tend to all be viable instead of just having 6 or 7 that define the game.

So what do you propose? No game has every weapon 100% balanced. Every game has meta builds, or a "best" way to play. You're never going to avoid it.

[Inferno_Ougi]

100% agree. I think people are missing the point of the post--- he's saying that more things should be elevated on the level that the meta-defining weapons/spells are on.

Drukaris eredeti hozzászólása:

meta is for sweatlords
not viable my ass
anything is viable if youre good enough

Doesn't mean that the meta is non-existent. Have you actually played any PvP? Pre-patch, it was moonveil, hoarfrost stomp, bloodhound step 9/10 fightclub duels. Post-patch, it's rivers of blood and bloodhound step (still).

Drukaris eredeti hozzászólása:

tim. eredeti hozzászólása:

The demographic for this post is people who have complaints about the meta of the weapons ...

to me it seems like a perfect way to grow bitter about the whole meta thing and make it a bigger deal than it actually is - to your own detriment

It's a fair thing to be annoyed about. PvP is just incredibly stale right now.

[tim.]

So what do you propose? No game has every weapon 100% balanced. Every game has meta builds, or a "best" way to play. You're never going to avoid it.

"I am just hopeful that the balancing will take into consideration that it's OKAY for weapons to be strong. It's better for the weapons to tend to all be viable instead of just having 6 or 7 that define the game."

There's my TLDR. The meta is bad because the rest of the weapons are boring and weak. Make the bad weapons better and the meta can be fresher.

[Inferno_Ougi]

Cappin Captain 英语 eredeti hozzászólása:

So what do you propose? No game has every weapon 100% balanced. Every game has meta builds, or a "best" way to play. You're never going to avoid it.

What? What kind of argument is this? Are you seriously implying that they don't balance anything?

[tim.]

Inferno_Ougi eredeti hozzászólása:

100% agree. I think people are missing the point of the post--- he's saying that more things should be elevated on the level that the meta-defining weapons/spells are on.

you summed up my sentiment exactly. I'd rather see 30 OP weapons/spells than 5. Variety is what is needed IMO.

[Tr0w]

tim. eredeti hozzászólása:

So what do you propose? No game has every weapon 100% balanced. Every game has meta builds, or a "best" way to play. You're never going to avoid it.

"I am just hopeful that the balancing will take into consideration that it's OKAY for weapons to be strong. It's better for the weapons to tend to all be viable instead of just having 6 or 7 that define the game."

There's my TLDR. The meta is bad because the rest of the weapons are boring and weak. Make the bad weapons better and the meta can be fresher.

Their track record with balancing is pretty much nerfing things into irrelevance (unless it's muh precious quantum folded steel).

[Luna ~]

man that regular player count of 700k dropped really fast after this patch.

[ScottyPippin]

tim. eredeti hozzászólása:

So what do you propose? No game has every weapon 100% balanced. Every game has meta builds, or a "best" way to play. You're never going to avoid it.

"I am just hopeful that the balancing will take into consideration that it's OKAY for weapons to be strong. It's better for the weapons to tend to all be viable instead of just having 6 or 7 that define the game."

There's my TLDR. The meta is bad because the rest of the weapons are boring and weak. Make the bad weapons better and the meta can be fresher.

I'm always for bringing up the weaker weapons instead of nerfing the over-performers, however that usually involves buffing 90 weapons instead of nerfing 3. It's unrealistic to buff every other weapon to compete with the OP ones from a developer standpoint, and you'd probably end up with even more unbalanced builds after trying to buff all the underperformers. I agree that there should be some POWERFUL weapons too.

I think one way would be to shuffle the meta occasionally instead of nerfing and buffing. Let bleed reign for a while right now, then in a week/month, nerf it, and buff sorceries or something. Keep something always OP, but shuffle it enough that it's always fresh. This isn't a perfect solution of course, because having to change builds often would suck. But if they can balance everything withing say, 10-20% of eachother, then even a skilled player using an underperforming build, should be able to beat people using the current meta build.

[tim.]

Luna Rosa ~ eredeti hozzászólása:

man that regular player count of 700k dropped really fast after this patch.

I'd imagine a very small minority of players even participate in PVP anyways, the nerfs don't effect the average player. But PVP is what keeps the game alive long after everyone has done the main game to death, at least that's how it was historically for other Souls games.

[Tr0w]

tim. eredeti hozzászólása:

Luna Rosa ~ eredeti hozzászólása:

man that regular player count of 700k dropped really fast after this patch.

I'd imagine a very small minority of players even participate in PVP anyways, the nerfs don't effect the average player. But PVP is what keeps the game alive long after everyone has done the main game to death, at least that's how it was historically for other Souls games.

>The nerfs don't effect the average player
Bruh the average player was using hoarfrost for bosses, gank squads, and rune farming, more people were using it for pve than pvp.

[tim.]

Cappin Captain 英语 eredeti hozzászólása:

I think one way would be to shuffle the meta occasionally instead of nerfing and buffing. Let bleed reign for a while right now, then in a week/month, nerf it, and buff sorceries or something. Keep something always OP, but shuffle it enough that it's always fresh. This isn't a perfect solution of course, because having to change builds often would suck. But if they can balance everything withing say, 10-20% of eachother, then even a skilled player using an underperforming build, should be able to beat people using the current meta build.

Shuffling is good, but usually for actively developed games with consistent expansions like MOBAs or TCGs. Since in Elden Ring you have to NG every time you want more respec items, it rapidly grows unrealistic pretty quickly. Imagine needing to make a new character each time the metashifts. A reusable respec item would be better in that case, or making it cost runes instead. It's true that balancing 90 (i'd say even 20-30) weapons would be a lot of legwork, but IMO the weak weapons are very samey and boring, i think even for PVE there's not enough variation. A weapon overhaul in general would be very fresh I feel.

[Drukaris]

A.C.Guernica eredeti hozzászólása:

Drukaris eredeti hozzászólása:

i mean if thats what you want, okay i guess
but out of curiosity - dont you have better things to do?
do you think theres coming something fruitful, meaningful or enjoyable out of this discussion?
to me it seems like a perfect way to grow bitter about the whole meta thing and make it a bigger deal than it actually is - to your own detriment

Are you suggesting that there is something else they should be doing? Like what?

now that i think about it, youre right, there is just nothing else one could do

[Tr0w]

tim. eredeti hozzászólása:

Cappin Captain 英语 eredeti hozzászólása:

I think one way would be to shuffle the meta occasionally instead of nerfing and buffing. Let bleed reign for a while right now, then in a week/month, nerf it, and buff sorceries or something. Keep something always OP, but shuffle it enough that it's always fresh. This isn't a perfect solution of course, because having to change builds often would suck. But if they can balance everything withing say, 10-20% of eachother, then even a skilled player using an underperforming build, should be able to beat people using the current meta build.

Shuffling is good, but usually for actively developed games with consistent expansions like MOBAs or TCGs. Since in Elden Ring you have to NG every time you want more respec items, it rapidly grows unrealistic pretty quickly. Imagine needing to make a new character each time the metashifts. A reusable respec item would be better in that case, or making it cost runes instead. It's true that balancing 90 (i'd say even 20-30) weapons would be a lot of legwork, but IMO the weak weapons are very samey and boring, i think even for PVE there's not enough variation. A weapon overhaul in general would be very fresh I feel.

Can't you just farm respec tears from those metal balls in one of the underground areas? I got some from them and they respawn iirc.

[tim.]

Tr0w eredeti hozzászólása:

tim. eredeti hozzászólása:

I'd imagine a very small minority of players even participate in PVP anyways, the nerfs don't effect the average player. But PVP is what keeps the game alive long after everyone has done the main game to death, at least that's how it was historically for other Souls games.

>The nerfs don't effect the average player
Bruh the average player was using hoarfrost for bosses, gank squads, and rune farming, more people were using it for pve than pvp.

I have no problems if people want to use OP weapons in PVE. That's their experience. In fact, i have no issue with OP weapons in general. I think there are just too few that it's boring; more variety is important.