About Spirit Ashes

[Phoenix]

Hey guys, i want to have a discussion about spirit ashes, this is not a gatekeeping post, or a complaint, im just curious about the community opinion on the topic.

I did multiple runs trough the game trying out different builds, and i'm still a bit confused about spirit ashes balance and design, i tried with, and without ashes for most of the fights.

All bosses can perfectly be defeated without ashes, some builds will have a harder time, and some will have it easier, but there's some encounters that do not feel balanced at all to be soloed, again, they can be killed solo, but it does not feel fun or engaging in any way.
But this goes both ways, some encounters feel literally free if you summon anything, summoning ashes totally trivializes them.

My question is, do you think that the game in general is balanced to be played with, or without spirit ashes? (ignoring mimic tear, this one is obviously overtuned)

[mewlynx]

every single gank fight was "designed" with summons in mind imo. there is no thought or consideration into how the solo experience plays out in these fights, so those are unquestionably meant to be done with summons.

every 1 on 1 fight was designed with solo play imo, I just summon for ganks and solo everything else

[dustin1280]

I believe that the game was designed around no ashes, except for the Duo-Boss fights...
I believe spirit ashes are intended to be used for them...

[Drahknon]

I feel like it's fair since (1) players need to put in the work to find and upgrade ashes like anything else to be consistently effective and (2) mid- to late-game ashes are powerful but so is the late-game content. I also feel like it's part of souls tradition to offer players tools that can be overpowered if they put in the work. In DS1, you could be overpowered early by doing a YOLO run for the Gravelord sword and putting in a few levels to trivialize the early game. In DS2, you could use bonfire ascetics to kill the rotten a bunch and either level up fast or bypass content. The mechanics are there to be used, and no one is making players use them. That's fair to me.

[Adam]

I don't use them unless its massive mob fights and don't fancy picking one off at a time (I've not actually done this in any of their games since DaS1). That's far more fun just running in. Or it's a boss with a mob or multiple bosses.

I actually really like that this game gives you a sense of having battles rather than everything always you. Some games try to do that but the NPC's are usually useless but in this they are actually useful. Considering the size of the game it is great that you can have different paces of gameplay and by large you can dictate this.

[Illaoi Bot]

i have a simple rule
no player
no npc

ashes only vs gank bosses

if its a 1v1 i would say stay away from ashes but if its a 1v2 or sometimes 1v. (boss+trashmobs)

its totally fair and you should never feel bad

[Legendairy2]

I am also of the belief, 1v1, no summons, 1v2, summon spirits as that fight was designed around you having help. I also think summons were added to accommodate some of the magic users. Some spells have LONGGGGG wind up times and I believe the Devs made them that way knowing Spirit Ashes would provide the distraction to get some of those spells off

[Texas_Jake]

If it's one on one I try it that way, if I keep getting beat out come the ashes. But if the boss is a duo or has trash mobs with it, well I bring my friends too.

I just want to play the game, have some fun, and progress. I do not however want to bang my head against a wall for hours on end just to prove to myself how badass I am at video games. Though I expect I will hit that wall eventually and then I will just go play something else.

[GladiatorA19]

Absolutely, the game is balanced around playing it with spirits. One of the main story points of you summoning Torrent is tied directly to the spirit bell and summoning ashes. There's an NPC dedicated to upgrading spirits, there's tons of different catacombs and areas to find spirits and upgrade materials in.

Why would the developers bother to make spirits such a relatively large part of the game and put all that effort into implementing them if they hated the idea of players using them? It is for sure a way to slip in an easier difficulty, like you just set boss fights to easy or whatever.

What I think people miss in the difficulty around this game is that the devs have the cheese going both ways. Sometimes you enter a fog gate and you get ganked cause you didn't know what was behind. But, you as the player have the option to summon mimic or Oleg or whoever and be "unfair" to the boss. I think it works out great.

I wish there was a Summoner class mod where you can only summon spirits or maybe your stats are capped low, but you can summon them anywhere and multiple times and have to rely on supporting them through heals or etc, think that would be pretty interesting.

[♔V3RD1CT]

Originally posted by Phoenix:

Hey guys, i want to have a discussion about spirit ashes, this is not a gatekeeping post, or a complaint, im just curious about the community opinion on the topic.

I did multiple runs trough the game trying out different builds, and i'm still a bit confused about spirit ashes balance and design, i tried with, and without ashes for most of the fights.

All bosses can perfectly be defeated without ashes, some builds will have a harder time, and some will have it easier, but there's some encounters that do not feel balanced at all to be soloed, again, they can be killed solo, but it does not feel fun or engaging in any way.
But this goes both ways, some encounters feel literally free if you summon anything, summoning ashes totally trivializes them.

My question is, do you think that the game in general is balanced to be played with, or without spirit ashes? (ignoring mimic tear, this one is obviously overtuned)

Spirits are fairly balanced/ I'd personally say fairly useless even. Thing is some bosses are so ignorant you are going to want a hand here, and there.

We as a community CAN NOT rely on the community to give us that hand, for the most part their primary goal is to ruin your experience, not help it. Pond scum makes spirits/ aka (any type of npc assistance that is NOT community scum, is absolutely needed.)

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Legendairy2:

I am also of the belief, 1v1, no summons, 1v2, summon spirits as that fight was designed around you having help. I also think summons were added to accommodate some of the magic users. Some spells have LONGGGGG wind up times and I believe the Devs made them that way knowing Spirit Ashes would provide the distraction to get some of those spells off

I feel like this also applies to melee builds, some bosses like to stand forever in pools of poison, rot, fire, death or whatever, without an ash to force the boss out, if you have bad RNG the boss forces you to wait forever.

[Jamaree]

A win is a win is a win is a win. If it is in the game, you are a ok to use it to beat the enemies. If the boss dies, the boss dies, the game doesn't check if you used a summon and lock out an area or something, all the game checks is if the boss died and thus, that is all that matters.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by GladiatorA19:

Absolutely, the game is balanced around playing it with spirits. One of the main story points of you summoning Torrent is tied directly to the spirit bell and summoning ashes. There's an NPC dedicated to upgrading spirits, there's tons of different catacombs and areas to find spirits and upgrade materials in.

Why would the developers bother to make spirits such a relatively large part of the game and put all that effort into implementing them if they hated the idea of players using them? It is for sure a way to slip in an easier difficulty, like you just set boss fights to easy or whatever.

What I think people miss in the difficulty around this game is that the devs have the cheese going both ways. Sometimes you enter a fog gate and you get ganked cause you didn't know what was behind. But, you as the player have the option to summon mimic or Oleg or whoever and be "unfair" to the boss. I think it works out great.

I wish there was a Summoner class mod where you can only summon spirits or maybe your stats are capped low, but you can summon them anywhere and multiple times and have to rely on supporting them through heals or etc, think that would be pretty interesting.

Agreed, there's too much work behind the ash system to be considered a "gimmick", also there's encounters where ashes are not allowed (evergaols) where sometimes you fight nerfed versions of the main story bosses, which makes you think that they actually balanced the game with ashes in mind.

[fischerr09]

imo the game is balanced for every playstyle (ignoring the scaling bug).
There is no style that I would say is more op than others. Spirit Ashes as well are fairly balanced. Some are weak and are just for early game enemy distraction. Some are very good depending on your build like mimic. Some are good regardless to the point I am considering a pure Summoner build once I have all. There are Ashes for every build.
Tank - use the healing Spirit.
Healer, Supporter - use damage dealer
Archer, Assassin, Magic, debilations - use a tank for distraction or other debilation Spirit like the jellyfish.
close combat Warrior - use healer or the group ones or the mimic (that is the only build where it makes sense)

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by fischerr09:

imo the game is balanced for every playstyle (ignoring the scaling bug).
There is no style that I would say is more op than others. Spirit Ashes as well are fairly balanced. Some are weak and are just for early game enemy distraction. Some are very good depending on your build like mimic. Some are good regardless to the point I am considering a pure Summoner build once I have all. There are Ashes for every build.
Tank - use the healing Spirit.
Healer, Supporter - use damage dealer
Archer, Assassin, Magic, debilations - use a tank for distraction or other debilation Spirit like the jellyfish.
close combat Warrior - use healer or the group ones or the mimic (that is the only build where it makes sense)

Thats a really interesting way to see it, never considered using them as a direct part of the build, a summoner buffing spirit ashes sounds like a fun idea for a playtrough

[Snefru]

I don’t think the game is balanced at all in general. Too many ways to make the game harder or easier and too much variation in players skill bases. I think the encounters where you can use them just give you an indication they’re considered tougher fights but don’t think they’re specifically balanced for them. Players can get to a fight at all kinds of levels, ashes of wars, builds, weapon upgrades, etc.
Plus, spirits are really varied in style and can be greatly upgraded or left at base level.
There’s no way to balance anything when there’s so many variables that can change the encounter. Use em if you want, use em if you need, or don’t.
I’ve played using the healer one so I just kill while she keeps me alive. I use the ranged ones for flying things or just cause they look cool. I use some weaker ones to just buy me a few hits to get in position. Goes on and on.