Why I think so many people find the late game bosses so frustrating.

[Target]

I have noticed that the late game bosses, basically everything after the capitol, are very divisive. Allot of people hate some or even all of them, others think they are fine or even great. I want to know why.

I have identified several contributing reasons that many late game bosses are more frustrating for at least a good portion of the player base.

1) Deliberately counter intuitive timings, attacks designed to punish the player for rolling when it looks like they should roll. Every late game boss has at least one of these (except the Godskin duo, but they have their own, obvious issues) and simply, you cant dodge them until you have already seen the attack, meaning your first run is pretty much doomed even if you have godlike reflexes. Memorizing all these attacks and their exact timings is a challange, but its one many players will find cheap and I imagine most players will feel like they are being punished for doing what the game taught them to do.

2) Unavoidable or seemingly unavoidable damage. Most attacks are avoidable, some Im not so sure, but if apon seeing an attack, you have no idea at all how to avoid it, most players are gonna get frustrated. Melenia's jump attack is pretty nortorias for this, I for one have yet to beat her and am going to have to look up a guide because as far as I can tell the combo is longer then your dodge in both range and timing. The lord of blood gets 3 massive 3 hits on you that are seemingly unavoidable going into phase 2. Is there anything more demoralizing then dying to something that looks like you cant possibly avoid it?

3) Insult to injury, excessive mechanics that honestly only add very little challenge but are very annoying and feel entirely unnecessary to the boss fight. The Lord of blood covers the battle fleed with flaming blood, its mostly just annoying but if he moves to the wrong spot you can easily back into a puddle of the stuff you cant see because the camera and then get combo-ed to death from a single flinch. The black blade not only deals 60% of your HP in a single hit, he also reduces your max HP and drains your health over time. These bosses were plenty challenging with out these mechanics, they honestly are not even adding much of a challenge but they are immensely frustrating and amplify a player feeling the boss is cheap rather then challanging.

There are other issues. I find my self in the camp who finds most of these late game bosses unfun. I soloed every boss in DS1, most in DS2 (I summoned on the optional DLC bosses, Im not a mad man) and again soloed all of them in DS3, then I beat Sekiro. Elden ring has the most frustrating bosses of all these games. Are they unfair? There some jank but all From games have some Jank, they seem mostly fair even if you really dont have a chance when you first fight them, but they are immensely frustrating. I play these games for the challenge and the level design, I dont play them, to deliberately infuriate myself and it feels like the late game bosses were designed to do percisly that.

Thats my honest opinion, Im not claiming the bosses are objectively bad, but I enjoyed the challange in DS3 and Sekiro, I dont enjoy the challenge the late game of Elden ring. Im not alone, that is an issue.

TLDR- Not everything can be easily summarized, especially game design, read the post you silly sausages.

[Noeat]

Цитата допису RevelationSpace:

The counter-intuitive timings have always been a staple of Fromsoft games... Sekiro does it too.

Long story short, if enemies used natural attack animations you would be able to dodge or deflect them instinctively, which would make the games too easy. So instead, someone raises their sword to hit you, and they hang their arm in mid air for 2 seconds to throw you off.

ngl, in ER it is sometime kinda too long :D
it was funny on Margitgut, when i roll like 3 or 4 times before attack :D and then get hit :D ..it was cool :)

[Nerevar]

Цитата допису Reaper:

Actually there are items that counter black blade and mohg's curse.
For curse you have a mixed physick thing that removes it and there is an item that is supposed to counter maliketh's black blade effect i think.

With Malenia you just have to create as much space as possible before first flurry, then roll into her before the final one. Or just use bloodhound's quickstep, this one helps a lot.

the problem is mogh STILL gets his free 3 hits on you. even when you use the physik to remove his 3 rings. you just take LESS dmg as you wont bleed. but it will still deal regular dmg to you regardless which is to be fair a bit dumb. plus he has massive hyper armor so attacking is absolutly pointless during this move aswell. all the physik does is safe you about 1 flask heal.
the biggest middlefinger is him HEALING 25% of his hp DESPITE removeing the curse. that is just plain stupid no matter what.

[Nikki]

Number one reason most of the late-game bosses annoyed me? Stakes of Marika become much less frequent in the late game. Other than that I'm fine with them, final boss not withstanding.

[frowningmirror]

Radahn dies to rot. Marggot/Margit has a fetish item that slams him to the ground if he has more than half hp. The lord of blood fight has a special physik potion that actually undoes his unavoidable hex. Malenia can be stun locked with the summons that add 5 npcs. They all die to Sorcery 1 shot builds

[Droodle]

My issue isn't that the bosses are hard to dodge or avoid or anything.
It's that later on:
THEY
NEVER
STOP
ATTACKING
Which makes playing with a colossal tedious for a lot of bosses unless you summon spirits.
I shouldn't have to wait 20-30s to get an opening to attack a boss for 1 hit.

Seriously, if FromSoft's design philosophy is "We'll make them spam attacks without any consistent openings for slower weapons" then they aren't making the game "fun but a challenge" more like "annoying".

If they're going by that design standpoint, at least follow monster hunter and make the bosses have openings and stamina.

As it is, it feels like using MH greatsword against a DMC/KH boss.

[Nerevar]

Цитата допису frowningmirror:

Radahn dies to rot. Marggot/Margit has a fetish item that slams him to the ground if he has more than half hp. The lord of blood fight has a special physik potion that actually undoes his unavoidable hex. Malenia can be stun locked with the summons that add 5 npcs. They all die to Sorcery 1 shot builds

mogh has the same item as margit btw. but it sadly doesnt work in phase 2 where it would be more helpful.

[Belbe's Ultra-Nightmare Fixation]

Цитата допису Rage:

You sound like an ass. I've beaten both Niohs...ALL the souls games...and just about every other souls-like you care to think of. This game's pretty meh.

cool story bro

[Reifam]

Цитата допису Doodle:

My issue isn't that the bosses are hard to dodge or avoid or anything.
It's that later on:
THEY
NEVER
STOP
ATTACKING
Which makes playing with a colossal tedious for a lot of bosses unless you summon spirits.
I shouldn't have to wait 20-30s to get an opening to attack a boss for 1 hit.

Seriously, if FromSoft's design philosophy is "We'll make them spam attacks without any consistent openings for slower weapons" then they aren't making the game "fun but a challenge" more like "annoying".

If they're going by that design standpoint, at least follow monster hunter and make the bosses have openings and stamina.

As it is, it feels like using MH greatsword against a DMC/KH boss.

Said this in another thread, but I saw a few times the idea that FromSoft has been thinking about boss balance from the perspective of a game having Sekiro or Bloodborne movement, but then this game has souls movement so it doesn't fit sometimes.

[Target]

Цитата допису frowningmirror:

Radahn dies to rot. Marggot/Margit has a fetish item that slams him to the ground if he has more than half hp. The lord of blood fight has a special physik potion that actually undoes his unavoidable hex. Malenia can be stun locked with the summons that add 5 npcs. They all die to Sorcery 1 shot builds

Whats your point? That these bosses are beatable or even cheese able? So? What if, just imagine this, some one wants to actually fight these bosses, and like see their move set, you dont really get to do that if you 1 shot them or stun lock them with summons.

If your point is that people shouldnt even try to fight these bosses with out stun locking them or 1 shotting them, ok, I would say thats a design issue.

[Nerevar]

Цитата допису Nikki:

Number one reason most of the late-game bosses annoyed me? Stakes of Marika become much less frequent in the late game. Other than that I'm fine with them, final boss not withstanding.

cant agree with this. pretty much all the really hard ones have a site of grace pretty much right in front of thier bossfog with no enemys around aswell. aside the dragonlord thats a bit longer walk with some enemies but he isnt that difficult tough nearly all his moves are slow and have fair tells aswell. they are just devastating hp wise.

malenias site of grace is right before her bossfog.
maliketh is just down the stairs and the sentinel enemy doesnt respawn once killed so no enemies either.
memeskin duo (seriously why do people struggle with this fight is beyond me you fought both of these morons before in a SMALL CLOSED ROOM in a dungeon already and this room is way bigger with pillars to help you break line of sight on top) there is a site of grace right next to thier bossroom you can sneak into without triggering the fight.
final bosses arent worth mentioning as its the same as malenia.

so sorry but just no. none of the lategame bosses suffer from lack of marikas. what are you talking about here?

[Ahoge-dono]

Цитата допису Reifam:

Цитата допису Doodle:

My issue isn't that the bosses are hard to dodge or avoid or anything.
It's that later on:
THEY
NEVER
STOP
ATTACKING
Which makes playing with a colossal tedious for a lot of bosses unless you summon spirits.
I shouldn't have to wait 20-30s to get an opening to attack a boss for 1 hit.

Seriously, if FromSoft's design philosophy is "We'll make them spam attacks without any consistent openings for slower weapons" then they aren't making the game "fun but a challenge" more like "annoying".

If they're going by that design standpoint, at least follow monster hunter and make the bosses have openings and stamina.

As it is, it feels like using MH greatsword against a DMC/KH boss.

Said this in another thread, but I saw a few times the idea that FromSoft has been thinking about boss balance from the perspective of a game having Sekiro or Bloodborne movement, but then this game has souls movement so it doesn't fit sometimes.

This. Character movement is so slow compared to everything else that it feels unbalanced. The big wind up attacks choose to pursue relentlessly. I distinctly remember in DS3 when you could see a large flurry of attacks incoming you could safely back off and let the enemy whiff.

[Belbe's Ultra-Nightmare Fixation]

Цитата допису Doodle:

My issue isn't that the bosses are hard to dodge or avoid or anything.
It's that later on:
THEY
NEVER
STOP
ATTACKING
Which makes playing with a colossal tedious for a lot of bosses unless you summon spirits.
I shouldn't have to wait 20-30s to get an opening to attack a boss for 1 hit.

Seriously, if FromSoft's design philosophy is "We'll make them spam attacks without any consistent openings for slower weapons" then they aren't making the game "fun but a challenge" more like "annoying".

If they're going by that design standpoint, at least follow monster hunter and make the bosses have openings and stamina.

As it is, it feels like using MH greatsword against a DMC/KH boss.

this is patently wrong, the amount of time that the final boss will give you in windows post attack or just in general is pretty significant. he's not that aggressive and he can be trivially punished and he's one of the more aggressive bosses in the game relatively speaking.

[Noeat]

Цитата допису Doodle:

My issue isn't that the bosses are hard to dodge or avoid or anything.
It's that later on:
THEY
NEVER
STOP
ATTACKING
Which makes playing with a colossal tedious for a lot of bosses unless you summon spirits.
I shouldn't have to wait 20-30s to get an opening to attack a boss for 1 hit.

Seriously, if FromSoft's design philosophy is "We'll make them spam attacks without any consistent openings for slower weapons" then they aren't making the game "fun but a challenge" more like "annoying".

If they're going by that design standpoint, at least follow monster hunter and make the bosses have openings and stamina.

As it is, it feels like using MH greatsword against a DMC/KH boss.

colossal weapon u said, right? ;)
how this one can do this... ;)
solo.. without spirits.. boss what is the most cursed one ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV2wTjQ9ijw

funny thing is, newbies dont have the same issue, because they DONT KNOW how it works in DS and arent blinded by some false idea it must be the same in ER.. they just play, and git gud.. aka
LEARN - learn moveset, learn about buffs, debuffs, weapons, gear
ADAPT - switch weapon, or even gear for protection, use shield and so..
PROFIT - beat that boss inbetween "souls vet" cry on forum how is it unfair and whatever ;)

damn... git gud was motto of DS community.. and now this community cry that is unfair when they need LEARN and ADAPT for PROFIT (aka git gud)

[Nerevar]

the only boss things i personally found questionable (i soloed EVERY boss without useing ashes aside malenias phase 2 and maliketh just for the record and no it wasnt a mage int build it was a shield str build with a greatsword) i had to summon ashes for maliketh in the end as his gimmick makes shields 100% useless. won first try after doing that which just proofs that ashes are easymode on any boss.

malenia phase 2 was simply TOO hard for me. i just couldnt outdps her healing when she did the bladedancer thingy on my shield. with the ashes i outdpsed her and beat her of course but still took 3 attempts.

malenia might be easier with a non shield build so that one was a build issue for certain.

but maliketh? i think this boss has no right at all to have a MAX HP DRAIN debuff none of the endgame bosses should have that. why? his dmg is so high to begin with that he can nearly always 2 shot kill you with regular hp with halfway decently leveled vigor. once the max hp drain comes into play (which triggers even on block btw) he will ALWAYS get you into 1 shot range. and his jumpspin has such a bighitbox that the game will somtimes register the hit as comeing from behind thus hitting you TROUGH your block which in combo with the max hp drain outright kills you.

malenias healing was annoying but still felt WAY more FAIR than malikeths LOL YOUR hp is now 50% smaller than normal oneshot bs.

malenia beeing an OPTIONAL superboss i can let everything she does slide. but maliketh is a clear outliner due to the max hp drain alone. like drain my hp fine. i can deal with that as mogh does the same with his bleed nonsense but do not reduce MAXHP aswell on top. that is just cheap and a clear outliner for a mandatory progression boss. all 3 bosses after him are easier.

[RottN]

To me I think instead of relying on only cool attack patters etc. like in previous they put too many cheesy attacks on the bosses. I am so disappointed in the Radogan/Beast fight in just how badly it was designed. The beast mainly is just dumb. Difficulty is good, cheesy tactics and fighting till you just get a lucky set of attacks is not fun. Beast..oh lets send out this cloud I usually explode then immediately send out homing stars instead of exploding the cloud and then before the stars go away but you think you just might survive let me through out the tracking spears from heaven oh and you may survive again..nope...lets through out a bunch of super fast hard to dodge disks. Its cheese not hard. Never thought I would miss Dancer. She was hard but not cheese so was actually kinda fun and I enjoyed learning to beat her. The team lost the formula and creativity.