Sorcery is overpowered ... until it isn't.

[Aetrion]

Sorcery has one fundamental problem in this game: It starts out so strong that almost everyone thinks it's overpowered, and it even gets called easy mode, but it doesn't scale well into endgame and NG+ at all. You wind up with a situation where most people are calling for nerfs for something that actually needs a pretty significant buff to be viable as a serious endgame build.

Essentially pure casters have the same problem as sniper rifles in FPS/RPG hybrids. A sniper rifle is one of the best weapons in the game as long as it kills enemies in one shot. Having to find a good sniper spot, sparse ammo, long reloads and careful aiming all pay off as long as getting headshots results in an instant kill. However, the second the game gives enemies enough health that your sniper rifle doesn't kill them in one shot it becomes one of the worst weapons in the game. It's ammo efficiency is instantly cut in half. Enemies that were previously dying without ever even seeing you now always get a chance to run, raise the alarm and shoot back no matter how well you picked your spot. Slow reloads and careful aim are now also no longer things you do while sneaking around, but things you have to do in open combat.

Now if you're someone who picks an assault rifle as their main weapon, runs in and starts blasting you might say that playing a sniper is too easy, but when the game hits that point where enemy HP becomes just a little too big for the sniper rifle to overcome you're still perfectly fine. Nothing much has changed for you. You've gone from needing 10 bullets to 11 bullets, and you're built for getting shot at.

Sorcery has exactly the same problem in Elden Ring. Limited FP, long charge times, glass cannon characters - these are all trade-offs you can happily make as long as your spells land with enough force to defeat enemies before they become a problem. The moment enemy HP becomes too high however that entire playstyle simply falls apart. Your FP efficiency drops through the floor, your ability to outplay enemies simply vanishes as all of them suddenly have enough time to come and fight you, and your fragile character doesn't do well trying to stand up to bosses that can two-shot even hardened fighters.

So this is actually a pretty big problem with Elden Ring, because so many people see spellcasters are overpowered or easy, but in actuality when you get to late game or go into NG+ they become really weak. The enemies eventually simply have so much health that your damage just isn't high enough to justify all the massive downsides your character has.

[Aetrion]

I started a sorcerer from Wretch, and it was pretty painful because I went in blind thinking this would be like Dark Souls where the sorcery staff and basic spells are available on the first vendor you encounter. Nope! I fould Sellen and thought she'd give me a staff, but that's also a nope, I had spells, but no way to cast them.
I eventually looked up where to get a staff and decided to go grab the meteorite staff, which is an absolute powerhouse in the early game.

Early game sorcery feels pretty good I think. You don't have enough FP to simply blast everything with spells, but when you do break out your magic it's very powerful. Late game is kind of disappointing, because you have enough FP to kill all the fodder with spells, but against tough enemies even the high end spells feel a bit anemic, and their FP efficiency is so poor that you just keep casting Glintstone Pebble.

[ddmsky]

Generally, magic is pretty strong until you encounter a giant damage sponge like Fire Giant, where you will run out of cerulian pretty fast and are left with nothing to work with. Idk how to beat that guy just yet

[Brown Town]

Sabaithal eredeti hozzászólása:

Pure caster builds are always confident, until they run into a revenant for the first time.

revenants are kinda fine if you ride around and just spam magic glintblades. Other times there are usually statues of marika or bell summon zones to help

[D. Flame]

Aetrion eredeti hozzászólása:

I started a sorcerer from Wretch, and it was pretty painful because I went in blind thinking this would be like Dark Souls where the sorcery staff and basic spells are available on the first vendor you encounter. Nope! I fould Sellen and thought she'd give me a staff, but that's also a nope, I had spells, but no way to cast them.
I eventually looked up where to get a staff and decided to go grab the meteorite staff, which is an absolute powerhouse in the early game.

Early game sorcery feels pretty good I think. You don't have enough FP to simply blast everything with spells, but when you do break out your magic it's very powerful. Late game is kind of disappointing, because you have enough FP to kill all the fodder with spells, but against tough enemies even the high end spells feel a bit anemic, and their FP efficiency is so poor that you just keep casting Glintstone Pebble.

There is one, can't remember its name, that is really good for fights when you have no time to cast. It is the equivalent of Homing Crystal Soulmass. You create swords about your head.

[Maelos]

Aetrion eredeti hozzászólása:

I started a sorcerer from Wretch, and it was pretty painful because I went in blind thinking this would be like Dark Souls where the sorcery staff and basic spells are available on the first vendor you encounter. Nope! I fould Sellen and thought she'd give me a staff, but that's also a nope, I had spells, but no way to cast them.
I eventually looked up where to get a staff and decided to go grab the meteorite staff, which is an absolute powerhouse in the early game.

Early game sorcery feels pretty good I think. You don't have enough FP to simply blast everything with spells, but when you do break out your magic it's very powerful. Late game is kind of disappointing, because you have enough FP to kill all the fodder with spells, but against tough enemies even the high end spells feel a bit anemic, and their FP efficiency is so poor that you just keep casting Glintstone Pebble.

Literally did the same thing and it was indeed painful. I killed margit melee, but specced for sorcery because that's what I wanted to go with.

Have the same feeling with progression. Bosses that don't really matter all that much can relatively easily get deleted, but aznything that doesn't is just you using glintstone pebble... Why glintstone pebble? Instant-cast and essentially the most efficiënt spell in the game. Sometimes I use rock sling, but that's only when the boss is slow enough or my summons can distract them, else it's nigh impossible to use due to how slow it is to cast. The same is true for most other spells. They're either way too inefficiënt or they're way too slow. Glintstone pebble just ends up being the most viable thing... Which is kind of boring. Oh sure, you could use Adula's moonblade or Carian greatsword or something, but that's only for the real rush-bosses... And even then, melee just ends up being better than magic in that case... Who goes wizard to only use CQC spells? Nobody.

[Aetrion]

D. Flame eredeti hozzászólása:

There is one, can't remember its name, that is really good for fights when you have no time to cast. It is the equivalent of Homing Crystal Soulmass. You create swords about your head.

It's a good spell, but just kind of awkward to use. You get stuck in that whole weird mode of playing where you intentionally don't face at the enemy until they are in the right position for a face full of swords.

Maelos eredeti hozzászólása:

Oh sure, you could use Adula's moonblade or Carian greatsword or something, but that's only for the real rush-bosses... And even then, melee just ends up being better than magic in that case... Who goes wizard to only use CQC spells? Nobody.

Yea, that's so true. Anyone who's like "Carian Slicer is so powerful!" I'm just like... If I wanted to stab people with a sword I'd have just rolled a fighter.

[ayseric]

Well to be honest from the way you described magic in elden ring I'm actually kind of interested to try out a mage build. Magic has always been way too strong in souls games and i never really enjoyed the playstyle of it (i usually played hybrid mages for high lvl pvp). You could effectivelly ignore boss mechanics and just attack from (any) distance, which is sad because it could be fun if the boss AI would have adjustments to ranged players. Jump and other distance gap attacks were always the easiest to avoid because you only needed a good timed roll to build up distance instead of dodging long pattern attacks.
Hybrid builds could be a great solution for the detailed endgame problems you described so I'm looking forward to test that out!

[Aetrion]

ayeseric eredeti hozzászólása:

Well to be honest from the way you described magic in elden ring I'm actually kind of interested to try out a mage build. Magic has always been way too strong in souls games and i never really enjoyed the playstyle of it (i usually played hybrid mages for high lvl pvp). You could effectivelly ignore boss mechanics and just attack from (any) distance, which is sad because it could be fun if the boss AI would have adjustments to ranged players. Jump and other distance gap attacks were always the easiest to avoid because you only needed a good timed roll to build up distance instead of dodging long pattern attacks.
Hybrid builds could be a great solution for the detailed endgame problems you described so I'm looking forward to test that out!

Sorcery was always more focused on timing than on positioning I'd say. When you're going for distance from the enemy you're almost never avoiding enemy attacks by dodging past them to get behind the enemy or going between their legs or anything like that.

Is that easier? In some fights definitely, but in fights where the enemy is hyper aggressive and can be on you in half a second I don't think so. Twin Princes is a good example of a fight where sorcerers had absolutely nothing going for themselves in DS3. They teleport to you, the most effective damage against them is dealt from behind, and you have relatively small windows for dealing damage when the younger prince revives the older one. Being a sorcerer in that fight sucks, because you're in melee no matter what and sorcery has no light attack spam to do max DPS when the younger prince is knocked down, so you have to fight them for way longer than you have to on a fighter.

The problem with hybrid builds for sorcerers in Elden Ring is that Ashes of War give fighters access to a lot of abilities that are simply stronger than any of the short range sorceries. While support sorceries do exist, there aren't anywhere close to as many and useful ones as support Incantations. There are some very strong weapons for dex/int hybrid builds, but those are ultimately about the weapon. Actually using sorcery to deal damage is an afterthought at that point.

[EpirusWarriorμολὼνλαβέ]

Playing a tank class, sword fighting mostly, no regrets.

[D. Flame]

EpirusWarriorμολὼνλαβέ eredeti hozzászólása:

Playing a tank class, sword fighting mostly, no regrets.

Give it time. You'll get there, especially if you aren't relying on things like bleed cheese.

[TheButcherr]

on NG+6 atm, still using magic, no problem

[cl656]

Since the comet azur nerf, sorcery doesn't feel overpowered. Know what is overpowered, and that can get you through most of the game though? Dragon rot breath with the Dragon seal. It does a few thousand burst damage and applies a scarlet rot dot.

[burdfishdemon]

Now say this about incantations, specifically on non-ARC builds

[Aetrion]

cool-dude eredeti hozzászólása:

Since the comet azur nerf, sorcery doesn't feel overpowered. Know what is overpowered, and that can get you through most of the game though? Dragon rot breath with the Dragon seal. It does a few thousand burst damage and applies a scarlet rot dot.

Yea, seeing this all over the place when I enter summoning pools. Also way easier to use than Comet Azur, because it's not locked into a single firing direction that can sometimes cause the enemy to melt and sometimes completely waste your one dumb flask powered single use ability.

burdfishdemon eredeti hozzászólása:

Now say this about incantations, specifically on non-ARC builds

I honestly think incantations have fewer problems. They suffer similar issues when it comes to damage, but they have so much more to offer than just damage. But yea, the incantations that take Arcane are by far the most powerful.

From Soft went a little overboard with remaking Luck. Used to be a weird oddball stat that powered a tiny number of crazy fringe builds. Now it basically powers all the strongest builds.

[blood_guts]

justfaded eredeti hozzászólása:

BS... sorcery builds get the same amount of vigor as all endgame builds. If anything, sorcery builds get viable sooner than say, quality or hybrid builds.

All this talk about mages being glass cannons is bs.

a lot of spells wont hit point blank though. when you play melee you want to be in their face and you're playing around that. When you get charged down it's tough to recover.

Also some situations are safer for a melee character going between a giant's legs for example is a lot safer than running away, especially since they gave almost every enemy a really fast sonic attack that's super hard to dodge and isn't telegraphed.