Sorcery is overpowered ... until it isn't.

[Aetrion]

Sorcery has one fundamental problem in this game: It starts out so strong that almost everyone thinks it's overpowered, and it even gets called easy mode, but it doesn't scale well into endgame and NG+ at all. You wind up with a situation where most people are calling for nerfs for something that actually needs a pretty significant buff to be viable as a serious endgame build.

Essentially pure casters have the same problem as sniper rifles in FPS/RPG hybrids. A sniper rifle is one of the best weapons in the game as long as it kills enemies in one shot. Having to find a good sniper spot, sparse ammo, long reloads and careful aiming all pay off as long as getting headshots results in an instant kill. However, the second the game gives enemies enough health that your sniper rifle doesn't kill them in one shot it becomes one of the worst weapons in the game. It's ammo efficiency is instantly cut in half. Enemies that were previously dying without ever even seeing you now always get a chance to run, raise the alarm and shoot back no matter how well you picked your spot. Slow reloads and careful aim are now also no longer things you do while sneaking around, but things you have to do in open combat.

Now if you're someone who picks an assault rifle as their main weapon, runs in and starts blasting you might say that playing a sniper is too easy, but when the game hits that point where enemy HP becomes just a little too big for the sniper rifle to overcome you're still perfectly fine. Nothing much has changed for you. You've gone from needing 10 bullets to 11 bullets, and you're built for getting shot at.

Sorcery has exactly the same problem in Elden Ring. Limited FP, long charge times, glass cannon characters - these are all trade-offs you can happily make as long as your spells land with enough force to defeat enemies before they become a problem. The moment enemy HP becomes too high however that entire playstyle simply falls apart. Your FP efficiency drops through the floor, your ability to outplay enemies simply vanishes as all of them suddenly have enough time to come and fight you, and your fragile character doesn't do well trying to stand up to bosses that can two-shot even hardened fighters.

So this is actually a pretty big problem with Elden Ring, because so many people see spellcasters are overpowered or easy, but in actuality when you get to late game or go into NG+ they become really weak. The enemies eventually simply have so much health that your damage just isn't high enough to justify all the massive downsides your character has.

[Shiroe (cortana)]

Pure sorcerer is very strong, if you use the right staffs and spells..
What i used was rock sling, magic glintblade, ranni's dark moon, stars of ruin, comet azur and meteorite of astel.

And use Wondrous Physick combined with cerulean hidden tear+ whatever else you prefer but that one is a must.
For gear such as armor, amulets and weapons i used.
Carian regal scepter+luzat staff and/or moonveil/dark moon greatsword and a random shield just for block on certain enemies such as malenia.

For amulets i used ritual sword talisman,dragoncrest greatshield, graven-mass and graven-school, i didnt use magic scorpion charm until ng+ but i used these in ng.
Armor doesnt really matter, unless you go for very specific spells,like snow witch hat, etc..

Otherwise just use whatever armor you like that looks cool.

I just reach ng++ myself and i gotta say..
It was strong in NG, also strong in ng+ up until ashen capital, after that it started to fall off.
But yeah, as pure sorcerer you are kinda 100% forced to use a spirit summon, either to help you with dmg, or just there to steal aggro from bosses,

I feel like bleed is the only viable option in ng++ unless you are a master of dodges and blocks.

Depending on the boss i started off with dark moon spell, then physicks flask and then blast away with comet azur or astel spell.

Something to take into consideration if you didnt already know.
Astel spell does far more dmg than comet too, but astel is harder to use tho so its very situational, even more than comet.

[Shiroe (cortana)]

i dont remember my stats 100%
But im lvl 266 now.
With 45 or 50 vigor,
40'ish mind (got 230 fp),
33 faith,
40 endurance,
i think i had 20 arcane.
99 Int

As for str and dex, i just put my remaining points in that, but mainly dex.

But those stats+ my gear, it just shreds bosses, or did up until ashen capital in ng+ :P

[kakodaimonos]

Ohh now I get it. You guys play sorcerer without your summon...

And then complain that it sucks. Ofc it does, duh. As a caster you want to cheese the hell out of the game so you use everything possible to do that.

But I guess this is pretty much the mentality of people saying "We need an Easy mode" without understanding what makes builds so incredibly powerfull and strong. It's not a single spell or Weapon... it's the combination of different things to make it powerful. Which is also called a build and that doesn't only consist of your attributes.

[Aetrion]

Първоначално публикувано от kakodaimonos:

Първоначално публикувано от Aetrion:

Do you actually understand what I'm doing? I simply rush the necessary bosses.

You can do whatever you want, but don't come in here boasting about how you're oneshotting bosses when you're not even touching 95% of the game.

[Zero Signal]

Първоначално публикувано от kakodaimonos:

It's not a single spell or Weapon... it's the combination of different things to make it powerful. Which is also called a build and that doesn't only consist of your attributes.

Exactly what being a mage is about. Manipulating everything in the world to bend to your reality. Im actually progressing without summons this time. Its not too horrible yet. Just did one of those dog knight things in a small room. Just took a little rethinking after a few attempts to figure out the right combo of spells and rolling.

[kakodaimonos]

Първоначално публикувано от Aetrion:

You can do whatever you want, but don't come in here boasting about how you're oneshotting bosses when you're not even touching 95% of the game.

But I'am oneshotting bosses. So how is that wrong in any way? First Phase last boss (wanna avoid spoilers just in case) is almost oneshot for me. Only the second phase is a tanky one and a little rough. But having a challenge is part of Elden Ring.

I'm doing NG++++ in a slower pace now with full int build. I will come around all bosses again. Will tell you when I'm done with that in a few weeks or so. But until then you guys probably moved along and understood how you make magic more potent.

Първоначално публикувано от Zero Signal:

Първоначално публикувано от kakodaimonos:

It's not a single spell or Weapon... it's the combination of different things to make it powerful. Which is also called a build and that doesn't only consist of your attributes.

Exactly what being a mage is about. Manipulating everything in the world to bend to your reality. Im actually progressing without summons this time. Its not too horrible yet. Just did one of those dog knight things in a small room. Just took a little rethinking after a few attempts to figure out the right combo of spells and rolling.

Yeah but for some people this seems to be rocket science.

[ImHelping]

Първоначално публикувано от kakodaimonos:

Ohh now I get it. You guys play sorcerer without your summon...

And then complain that it sucks. Ofc it does, duh. As a caster you want to cheese the hell out of the game so you use everything possible to do that.

But I guess this is pretty much the mentality of people saying "We need an Easy mode" without understanding what makes builds so incredibly powerfull and strong. It's not a single spell or Weapon... it's the combination of different things to make it powerful. Which is also called a build and that doesn't only consist of your attributes.

*STR Guy with a boat anchor or some other cartoon cave man weapon uses a weak summon* "Ugh, baby player using summons, for babies. Summons should never have been put in the game!"

*Wizard tries to wizard his way to victory* "Wow, look at this idiot not using summons. If you are not spamming summons you are playing wrong."

[kakodaimonos]

Първоначално публикувано от ImHelping:

Първоначално публикувано от kakodaimonos:

Ohh now I get it. You guys play sorcerer without your summon...

And then complain that it sucks. Ofc it does, duh. As a caster you want to cheese the hell out of the game so you use everything possible to do that.

But I guess this is pretty much the mentality of people saying "We need an Easy mode" without understanding what makes builds so incredibly powerfull and strong. It's not a single spell or Weapon... it's the combination of different things to make it powerful. Which is also called a build and that doesn't only consist of your attributes.

*STR Guy with a boat anchor or some other cartoon cave man weapon uses a weak summon* "Ugh, baby player using summons, for babies. Summons should never have been put in the game!"

*Wizard tries to wizard his way to victory* "Wow, look at this idiot not using summons."

No one forces you to. But don't complain then when the game is getting way harder. Magic is still very strong though but you actually have to do mechanics.

[ImHelping]

Първоначално публикувано от kakodaimonos:

Първоначално публикувано от ImHelping:

*STR Guy with a boat anchor or some other cartoon cave man weapon uses a weak summon* "Ugh, baby player using summons, for babies. Summons should never have been put in the game!"

*Wizard tries to wizard his way to victory* "Wow, look at this idiot not using summons."

No one forces you to. But don't complain then when the game is getting way harder. Magic is still very strong though but you actually have to do mechanics.

This feels like like reading the "No see, if you spam nothing but crouch stabs then colossal weapons are not too slow to be practical on tantrum flailing bosses and therefore, just as practical as weapons you get to use the full moveset easily!" posts.

[Shiroe (cortana)]

Първоначално публикувано от kakodaimonos:

Първоначално публикувано от ImHelping:

*STR Guy with a boat anchor or some other cartoon cave man weapon uses a weak summon* "Ugh, baby player using summons, for babies. Summons should never have been put in the game!"

*Wizard tries to wizard his way to victory* "Wow, look at this idiot not using summons."

No one forces you to. But don't complain then when the game is getting way harder. Magic is still very strong though but you actually have to do mechanics.

Depends on ng+ level..
On ng and ng+ you really dont need mechanics as a pure sorcerer xD
Other than a few selected bosses.

[kakodaimonos]

Първоначално публикувано от ImHelping:

Първоначално публикувано от kakodaimonos:

No one forces you to. But don't complain then when the game is getting way harder. Magic is still very strong though but you actually have to do mechanics.

This feels like like reading the "No see, if you spam nothing but crouch stabs then colossal weapons are not too slow to be practical on tantrum flailing bosses and therefore, just as practical as weapons you get to use the full moveset easily!" posts.

Don't know. I mostly avoid these forums because it's nothing but complains.

All I can say is: Enjoy the f-ing game... and stop meta gaming because your famous youtuber or streamer does it so well. Guess what they have the entire day every day to achieve this because they make a living off of this.

And yes this is the usual "git gud" post.

[Raviel]

who cares about ng++?
this game is already very long and ng+ is a challenge run, when you play easymode there is no reason to play ng+ since it beats the whole purpose of a challenge.

i had mage chars in ds2 and 3, it always is easy mode. it is not about damage, it is about being extremely safe at all times!
you can always keep your distance and not be at danger of taking any hits. you can use light armor and do fast rolls that increase roll range to about double so you are insanely hard to hit for a boss..

in ds you had 1-2 weapons that scalled with int at most, here pretty much every thing can be enchanted to scale with int and most legendary weapons start with int scalling..
that is just crazy. you get both spells and strong weapon for free!!!

so your arguments about fp do not hold. you can just use regular weapon to deal with trash mobs as every other character would. if you don't have enough fp to finish 1 single boss, its an other issue...

hell you even get different damage types on both sorcery and faith.. in ds you atleast had bosses with very high resist to punish mages. here you don't even suffer from ressists!!!

[Aetrion]

At the end of the day I simply don't care about the bosses you can cheese with Comet Azur or Meteorite of Astel and the infite FP flask.

Yea, they exist, but quite frankly, those fights are a design flaw in this game, not proof that sorcerers are good. Being able to trivialize many boss fights with cheese does not make the sorcerer experience better. It makes it worse because it isn't actually fun to win that way, and the real gameplay that you're looking for doesn't get fixed if everyone reduces the whole sorcerer experience down to a single awful design decision From Soft made.

The infinite FP flask is an abomination that shouldn't exist, because it's why "one shotting" is even possible with spells that you can just hold down for as long as you have FP. This kind of nonsense was not in any of the previous games, and it's honestly just crap that it defines spellcasters in this one.

That's ultimately my problem with this. If you play Dark Souls 3 every single boss fight is a real fight for a sorcerer. There are some fights that are extremely difficult for sorcerers, there are some fights that are really easy for sorcerers, but at the end of the day every fight is a real fight. In this game you can cheese your way past tons of the bosses by using broken mechanics, and we're supposed to accept that as a good reason why sorcerers don't need to be well balanced and fun to play when that doesn't work or you don't like playing that way.

[At@At]

Heard this a million times at this point.

Yeah yeah, sorcery is weak because it can't do everything. U can't have all the stats (Well u can but u have to pump almost everything into Int and mind). It's the weakest thing in the game because Flasks are so very rare... 7 Mana flasks and 6 HP Flasks by the time u get to mid-late game just isn't enough. If it has some drawbacks it means u can't say it's strong at all. It's just awful. U can't just one shot every boss with 1 spell and the ones u can don't count. If the boss manages to attack u and u have to save stamina, instead of just attacking, to dodge that means sorcery is weak. Oh no u can't just use every spell and have to look for openings to attack or use flasks? Sorcery is weak then. Every single spell needs to be equally useful and powerful or else sorcery can't be called strong. Late-game u have to start investing in other stats to remain viable? Too weak.

All these other builds just don't run into any of the problems sorcery does at all. It's just sorcery that runs into them. Dealing with Boss timing, getting one shot without investing into defense, stamina management, running out of FP, etc. Just Sorcery problems.

[Uugly]

Nerf pebble, Carian slicer and comet then sorcerer is trash. Only those 3 are useful to me. Most are just fancy magic that cost a massiv amount of FP while doing little damage.