That's silly (Story Spoiler)

[Ssjbryando]

Spoilers surrounding ally twist.

So, in the story, I was wondering myself when a twist would happen since not that many characters were introduced - one had to be a villian of sorts, and it was, the mentors.

Now, their explanation for it is silly. They wanted to be ''free'' so they decided to burn the entire world down as a trade-off. Huh? How about.. Just, walk away from the old man? Say no? Run away? What amusement ride are you gonna go in with the world burning?

I am sure the rest gets explained as I keep playing, but for the moment that was confusing.

[Koby]

As you said in your last line... it's something that does get explained if you keep playing.

[Peter Panzy]

I would say, that is one of the games biggest problems as well as its greatest strength. The story telling flow is unique. Its starts off very cliche and slow paced, but once it starts to get goin it just builds up and up and up. Alot of the nay Sayers to the game havn't even played it that long and put it down cause of its slower start.... shame to, cause they are just denying themselves a great story.

for me though, I thought this was goin to be another Cool looking JRPG style game and get boring fast till Garl got his eye taken.... Very dark thing to happen to a child and showed me there is something more... grounded and unique to the game. Really didn't get me till that knock on the alchemist door, that actually got me and I thought that was brilliant way to bring the story up to date.

Side note: still goin through the game and I had the same thought as you did OP, why did the mentors turn and even threaten to kill the twins (if you lose the fight). Goin slow and enjoying the game

[Codutch21]

They need to get off world to be safe, and they need to make certain deals to do so.

[Weltall8000]

It was a predictable/foreshadowed twist. The initial given explanation sounds stupid. But... there's more to it than what is disclosed when that act 1 twist occurs.

[Codutch21]

Wolf a écrit :

Their reasons never make sense even as you progress further. They're just sideshow clowns who were upset they never got to be the Guardian Gods. And so they decided that if they weren't going to be idolized by the world, everyone needs to suffer.

That's not it. They had a pretty good reason to believe they were on a doomed planet, and chose not to go down with a sinking ship.

[Minneyar]

Wolf a écrit :

Codutch21 a écrit :

That's not it. They had a pretty good reason to believe they were on a doomed planet, and chose not to go down with a sinking ship.

I don't remember seeing any dialogue about this in the game. If this is true, (I don't know where you got this from) why didn't they just get up and leave without talking to Moraine? Better yet, why didn't they negotiate to evacuate everyone on the planet?

I forget the exact wording of it, but it's pretty explicitly laid out in a conversation between them and the acolytes that they know there are more dwellers that they're not strong enough to defeat, and they made a deal with the acolytes to let them go to another world in exchange for helping to revive the Dweller of Strife.

We never see the the details of their initial conversations with the acolytes, but I think it's fair to assume that the acolytes would refuse to evacuate everyone on the planet. They're not interested in helping anybody; they're only willing to do the bare minimum necessary to get Brugraves and Erlina to work with them.

He kept asking the real main characters to join them repeatedly, never explaining for what good, only "please understand". Understand what? He kept repeating that but never went into any details. Then he goes on to ask the main villain for power, just like Erlina.

He tried to explain to Valere several times, and she refused to let him talk every time. Which is a shame, it'd provide her with some much-needed inner conflict and characterization if she was actually tempted with the offer to go to another world when faced with the inevitable destruction of her own.

TBH, I put more of the blame on Moraine here and am surprised nobody in game ever calls him out on it. He made Brugraves and Erlina's training so awful that they decided they'd rather let the world end than keep being Solstice Warriors, and then when worse came to worst, he just gave up and decided to YOLO rather than do anything to help. Worst mentor ever.

[Codutch21]

Exactly, The solstice warriors get pulverized almost the point of extinction when they were around 10 years old. And then as the youngest recruits and only Moraine to train them it seemed like a lost cause. I think I recall Moraine saying that around a dozen solstice warriors lost their lives to purify one Dweller, and when they found out [/spoiler] they decided to cut a deal to save their own hides. Yes they are selfish in the end when facing doom, and Erlina turned out pretty power hungry. Brugaves seemed like a pretty nice guy though. Too bad he was born on a solstice and pressured into being everyone's last hope.

[Ssjbryando]

So I just got to the end of Act 2 (Spoilers) and it's still silly.

The guy, who clearly has a good heart said he wants to forget and never fight soltice warriors, to be free.

Now, he wants/has a NEW master and is to still be a CONTROLLED puppet of war. How is that any different? It's the same curse, only for a different more evil camp. Now the woman, her desires are more clear.

[BROLY 32]

"Everything I did, I did for you Brugaves" -Erlina
*10 seconds later, once Brugaves is gone and doomed to be a brainwashed demonic slave until he dies*
"I WANT POWER !!!!"-Erlina

♥♥♥♥ both of them, they have no redeeming qualities.

[Weltall8000]

Ssjbryando a écrit :

So I just got to the end of Act 2 (Spoilers) and it's still silly.

The guy, who clearly has a good heart said he wants to forget and never fight soltice warriors, to be free.

NOW, he wants/has a NEW master and is to still be a CONTROLLED puppet of war. How is that any different/free? It's the same curse, only for a different more evil camp. Now the women, her desires are more clear.

I took it as he did not understand the extent of the Faustian bargain he was making.

He had weak moral character and wanted to just be left alone, have it easy. He was afraid. A lot of this does tie to his upbringing though. And, unlike our heroes, he didn't have a Garl.

[BROLY 32]

Weltall8000 a écrit :

I took it as he did not understand the extent of the Faustian bargain he was making.

He had weak moral character and wanted to just be left alone, have it easy. He was afraid. A lot of this does tie to his upbringing though. And, unlike our heroes, he didn't have a Garl.

I think you're right about Garl. Garl grounds them and forces them to see the outside world differently.
There's real people out there, with real problems and real suffering.
That's why they don't even try to talk with Erlina and Brugaves who both clearly only care about themselves.

[Codutch21]

Nah they understood the threat better than anyone else. Erlina is awful, but Brugaves in nearly every scene is talking to Erlina about trying to save Zale and Valere by including them in the deal. They saw massive death tolls and understand the existential threat in a way that nobody else does except for Moraine (He seems to get a pass for some reason). They made their choice under the impression that it was either A) Take the deal and save yourself. or B) Don't take the deal, and die with everybody. No middle ground. Zale and Valere are still in a honeymoon phase as young adventurers and haven't seen death or any significant loss in their lives so of course they don't understand.

It's easy to say yeah they were selfish end of story, but I think a vast majority of people would choose dishonorably surviving instead of a pointless and unavoidable death.

[597]

I wouldn't call Brugaves "nice." Nice is when you have the ability to choose. He can't even challenge Erlina on a single topic he knows they don't already agree on. He feels like he should become stronger than her before he can be honest and independent. He might also not want to challenge her because he might be aware that his weakness and submissiveness were sources of her confidence and her belief in power since childhood.

In any case, if he thought he was going along with the right thing, he wouldn't want a memory wipe. He's just too weak.

He and Erlina are not justified in becoming monsters, but I can understand them and sympathize with their childhood quirks gradually metastasizing into evil pathology. I think their perspective, along with Seraï's, are the best presented to the player. They are so well
written it's easy to identify with them.

Everything around E&B converged to nudge them into bad choices.

The slaughter of all their heroes and the pressure of being expected to immediately surpass them. As tiny kids!

That quitter Moraine is a horrible and abusive pedagogue to them when what they needed was freedom, friendship and encouragement. Does anyone like this guy? I couldn't believe they had the Mirth theme still playing normally in the scene where he decides to bail.

Resh'an, for someone with aeons of knowledge, sets up these Solstice cults in the worst possible way. Mooncradle is a hippy commune where nobody even knows who their parents are. While there are a few advantages to tribes based on partible paternity, child future mental health and safety from sexual predators are not among them. Just what I'd expect from someone whose policy for fighting evil is to be a cowardly observer and wait until the villain sees the error of his ways, giving him infinite "second chances."

Weltall8000 a écrit :

And, unlike our heroes, he didn't have a Garl.

Garl seems like a psycho to me. He's a cool kid, but 10 years later he's insufferably irreverent, loud and needy, so his instances of humility and childlike wonder come off as totally fake to me.

Even after a prophet confirms that he's traveling with 2 incarnations of gods, he's still the one bossing them around. He bangs his "sword and shield" together taunting enemies and making threats in their name. Repeatedly screaming "loser!" is something only people who are obsessed with the fear they might be losers do, people who think being a loser is morally wrong.

If anything, I'd say Valere and Zale are the ones grounding Garl and inspiring him for his fated great role. If this wasn't the writer's intention, I don't think he did a good job showing it. Too many characters are either inhuman or don't have a logical motivation so i can't identify with them at all. This might change if more games in the series touch the same characters.

[Weltall8000]

597 a écrit :

Garl seems like a psycho to me. He's a cool kid, but 10 years later he's insufferably irreverent, loud and needy, so his instances of humility and childlike wonder come off as totally fake to me.

Even after a prophet confirms that he's traveling with 2 incarnations of gods, he's still the one bossing them around. He bangs his "sword and shield" together taunting enemies and making threats in their name. Repeatedly screaming "loser!" is something only people who are obsessed with the fear they might be losers do, people who think being a loser is morally wrong.

If anything, I'd say Valere and Zale are the ones grounding Garl and inspiring him for his fated great role. If this wasn't the writer's intention, I don't think he did a good job showing it. Too many characters are either inhuman or don't have a logical motivation so i can't identify with them at all. This might change if more games in the series touch the same characters.

I think Garl's got some issues, but he pushes through them in mostly positive ways. I think he's debatably teetering between supportive and codependent, but he believes in Zale and Valere and their friendship. I do think some of his persona is fake, or at least contrived, by him.

I'm frankly surprised you write what you do, but not realize this about him. Like, yeah, he's pretty obviously afraid of being a loser or useless. However, he's trying to transcend that by faking it 'til he makes it. And as a result, he bolsters the twins and makes it all happen. Without Garl, and his very conscious dedication to the choice as to how to confront his fears, the twins don't ascend.

[597]

Oh, absolutely. I don't mean that their friendship is fake or that he doesn't have the best intentions. All his choices on what to do are right.

Just saying he's so dramatic it's exhausting. I don't know myself enough, but I think I'd want to bail if my friend creeped me out shifting between childish innocence and humility, and that kind of bully zeal. There's no way I could trust someone like that. Even if they made a sacrifice for me, my gut feeling would be that at least one half is fake, or that they're not sane.

And yes, of course V&Z wouldn't be able to get to Aephorul's world without his sacrifice and the gods giving him the mission.

But do I think they wouldn't be able to ascend without his positivity in their lives, or that they could have become villains without him? No. I read them as the Krishna type who would do the right thing and develop into the perfect unbreakable adult no matter what.

Moraine could be even worse to them than he was to E&B, their village could get slaughtered in front of them. Garl could bully them as kids. And they'd still be so perfect that they're boring.

Of course, I'm not saying that's canon. It's my reading of SoS as a classical messianic myth played straight, out of what we do have. I can't think of anything more lame than a story where a human is somehow necessary to lift up incarnations of gods. Krishna and Jesus raise you even if you're their parent.

Someone who feels the opposite way has plenty of evidence for their reading as well.