SUPER SONIC 2!!!

[PwnyHipster]

SUPER SONIC 2!!!

[Ikagura]

I don't think that Sonic should get a second Super form to be epic or good.

I mean you can see how despite having all Chaos Emeralds Sonic 2's battle with normal Sonic vs the giant Egg Robot is still seen as one of the most epic fights in the franchise because Sonic could defeat the final boss without the need of a last hour super power.

Sonic CD is a special case since the Time Stones are not Chaos Emeralds and never got referenced afterwards that much but the orchestra theme for that rather easy final boss was epic enough thanks to it.

Sonic 3&K's Doomsday Zone was also quite epic but it's mostly because it was quite the novelty (as well as the fact that Robotnik literally had two phases with his even bigger Egg Robot then still managed to escape with his Egg-o-matic with the Master Emerald, showing how clingy and determined he was to keep it which told how serious that moment was).

Despite what you can think of 3D Blast I think that Final Fight having Sonic not turn super but having a more serious sounding theme also was good for what was basically the finale of the Genesis era (and classic Sonic in general until Generations would come out).

It's only Sonic vs Robotnik's final weapon and it shows that he is no longer joking, he's here to get rid of the Blue Hedgehog at last https://youtu.be/h4ioYorKqYo?si=j1pswLzFna-oEmvW

I think that the biggest issue with Super in Modern games is how, until Colours, you could no longer have access to Super Sonic outside of the final boss (it was meant to be a bonus for the best players after all) and you didn't have Special Stages until Heroes.

Almost every final bosses are just "ramming fast into the big monster" which feels repetitive (like Nega Wisp Armor clones in Lost World and Frontiers).

I believe that Dimps with Advance and Rush made better final bosses (and true last bosses) in the franchise overall.

PS: I forgot to tell but Sonic didn't need Super to beat Perfect Chaos despite that he needed the power of these emeralds to be able to stand a chance in SA1.


PPS: Isn't it funny how in SA1 they literally said that the Chaos Emeralds had a darker power (that Perfect Chaos drained) but never got referenced again? Unleashed also showed darkened Emeralds but these weren't the same. Ditto with Chaos Control that Sonic managed to do once and that's it.

[Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF]

It's honestly up to personal preference (that differs from fan to fan and from dev to dev) here , as far as I'm concerned. We have your opinion in regards, but you can't speak for everyone here, and neither can I. All I really wish is just to patch the lore holes and other issues of Hyper's original explanation design in a modern title, then cut it or turn it into a recurring transformation that is no longer accessible during regular gameplay and takes Advance trilogy/Rush duology's Super and the aforementioned Starfall Super cues, leaving the stock Super as the only transformation that serves as a regular gameplay reward for getting all 7 Chaos Emeralds while the incremental transformations DO NOT go the Dragon Ball route of incremental transformations entirely overshadowing their predeceeding power ups.

Sonic doesn't need more than 3 incremental forms to be epic or good, I'll relatively agree with you on the part that you mentioned in the beginning of your latest. The other forms should be more of exclusive distinct transformations that have nothing to do with the Emeralds and their lore at all.

[HyperManBX]

I only brought up Colors because I felt they had an opportunity to bring back Hyper in the way that was suggested - only a scripted event reserved for the final boss, and not replacing Super.

My only problem with the color blast thing was that I found it a bit lame - with the whole announcer thing, like they couldn't come up with a cooler name than "color blast"? The idea of the wisps being the mode of defeating the final boss fit very nicely, but I think it would have fit better into the sonic lore if those wisps had caused a transformation related to a series staple - the chaos emeralds.

That also would have provided a small visual reward to players who bothered to collect all 7 emeralds. I say "small" reward because if you get to that point you have already won, it's just a matter of clicking the "A" button, so it really wouldn't matter. You don't even get to use Super in that fight anyway, so it's something - I guess. And Super is useless in that game anyway, so a slightly more epic scripted event at the end would suffice to acknowledge the effort to collect the 7 emeralds in the way suggested - the reward is the reappearance of a form that is scripted, reserved for the final boss, is not overused, does not replace Super, and does not contribute to "power creep".

[Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF]

HyperManBX a écrit :

I only brought up Colors because I felt they had an opportunity to bring back Hyper in the way that was suggested - only a scripted event reserved for the final boss, and not replacing Super.

My only problem with the color blast thing was that I found it a bit lame - with the whole announcer thing, like they couldn't come up with a cooler name than "color blast"? The idea of the wisps being the mode of defeating the final boss fit very nicely, but I think it would have fit better into the sonic lore if those wisps had caused a transformation related to a series staple - the chaos emeralds.

That also would have provided a small visual reward to players who bothered to collect all 7 emeralds. I say "small" reward because if you get to that point you have already won, it's just a matter of clicking the "A" button, so it really wouldn't matter. You don't even get to use Super in that fight anyway, so it's something - I guess. And Super is useless in that game anyway, so a slightly more epic scripted event at the end would suffice to acknowledge the effort to collect the 7 emeralds in the way suggested - the reward is the reappearance of a form that is scripted, reserved for the final boss, is not overused, does not replace Super, and does not contribute to "power creep".

Actually, it does do the last point. If you remember Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Sonic Origins (including Plus), both Hyper Sonic and Hyper Knuckles have screen-wipe attacks, with Sonic's being always accessible through Hyper Flash in that poorly explained Hyper transformation (Knuckles requires a wall impact to activate his screen-wipe).

This screen-wipe power isn't present with Augmented Super Tails and Augmented Super Amy (the "Hyper" forms of Tails and Amy respectively, referred to by the way I mentioned them due to retcon incosistency and their lack of actual Hyper screen-wipe powers, replaced by Super form augmentations like Super Flickies and the hammer volley), but my point is about Sonic and Knuckles specifically, the other Origins characters are just a little trivia.

[Ikagura]

HyperManBX a écrit :

I only brought up Colors because I felt they had an opportunity to bring back Hyper in the way that was suggested - only a scripted event reserved for the final boss, and not replacing Super.

My only problem with the color blast thing was that I found it a bit lame - with the whole announcer thing, like they couldn't come up with a cooler name than "color blast"? The idea of the wisps being the mode of defeating the final boss fit very nicely, but I think it would have fit better into the sonic lore if those wisps had caused a transformation related to a series staple - the chaos emeralds.

That also would have provided a small visual reward to players who bothered to collect all 7 emeralds. I say "small" reward because if you get to that point you have already won, it's just a matter of clicking the "A" button, so it really wouldn't matter. You don't even get to use Super in that fight anyway, so it's something - I guess. And Super is useless in that game anyway, so a slightly more epic scripted event at the end would suffice to acknowledge the effort to collect the 7 emeralds in the way suggested - the reward is the reappearance of a form that is scripted, reserved for the final boss, is not overused, does not replace Super, and does not contribute to "power creep".

As I read apparently the "Hyper-go-on" power of the Wisps was similar to the Chaos Emerald's but the quote went unused.

I found the video in question: https://youtu.be/CafgpUojSxw?si=ua_Zt8MfGOtpOmim at 0:46.

Maybe Wisp enhanced Chaos Emeralds could've made sense (since each are associated to similar colours).

I do agree that having the final attack be named "Rainbow" would've been more badass and made more sense since there are all the colors.

PS: Here's the KR W reference https://youtu.be/v9BFkv5DYLU?si=tm6tA9BUTLVQpfN-

Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF a écrit :

Actually, it does do the last point. If you remember Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Sonic Origins (including Plus), both Hyper Sonic and Hyper Knuckles have screen-wipe attacks, with Sonic's being always accessible through Hyper Flash in that poorly explained Hyper transformation (Knuckles requires a wall impact to activate his screen-wipe).

This screen-wipe power isn't present with Augmented Super Tails and Augmented Super Amy (the "Hyper" forms of Tails and Amy respectively, referred to by the way I mentioned them due to retcon incosistency and their lack of actual Hyper screen-wipe powers, replaced by Super form augmentations like Super Flickies and the hammer volley), but my point is about Sonic and Knuckles specifically, the other Origins characters are just a little trivia.

Hyper Sonic kinda destroys the eyes as well.

Isn't it weird that Tails can only use Super Emeralds to turn Super? This wasn't the case in Mania.

[Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF]

Ikagura a écrit :

HyperManBX a écrit :

I only brought up Colors because I felt they had an opportunity to bring back Hyper in the way that was suggested - only a scripted event reserved for the final boss, and not replacing Super.

My only problem with the color blast thing was that I found it a bit lame - with the whole announcer thing, like they couldn't come up with a cooler name than "color blast"? The idea of the wisps being the mode of defeating the final boss fit very nicely, but I think it would have fit better into the sonic lore if those wisps had caused a transformation related to a series staple - the chaos emeralds.

That also would have provided a small visual reward to players who bothered to collect all 7 emeralds. I say "small" reward because if you get to that point you have already won, it's just a matter of clicking the "A" button, so it really wouldn't matter. You don't even get to use Super in that fight anyway, so it's something - I guess. And Super is useless in that game anyway, so a slightly more epic scripted event at the end would suffice to acknowledge the effort to collect the 7 emeralds in the way suggested - the reward is the reappearance of a form that is scripted, reserved for the final boss, is not overused, does not replace Super, and does not contribute to "power creep".

As I read apparently the "Hyper-go-on" power of the Wisps was similar to the Chaos Emerald's but the quote went unused.

I found the video in question: https://youtu.be/CafgpUojSxw?si=ua_Zt8MfGOtpOmim at 0:46.

Maybe Wisp enhanced Chaos Emeralds could've made sense (since each are associated to similar colours).

I do agree that having the final attack be named "Rainbow" would've been more badass and made more sense since there are all the colors.

PS: Here's the KR W reference https://youtu.be/v9BFkv5DYLU?si=tm6tA9BUTLVQpfN-

Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF a écrit :

Actually, it does do the last point. If you remember Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Sonic Origins (including Plus), both Hyper Sonic and Hyper Knuckles have screen-wipe attacks, with Sonic's being always accessible through Hyper Flash in that poorly explained Hyper transformation (Knuckles requires a wall impact to activate his screen-wipe).

This screen-wipe power isn't present with Augmented Super Tails and Augmented Super Amy (the "Hyper" forms of Tails and Amy respectively, referred to by the way I mentioned them due to retcon incosistency and their lack of actual Hyper screen-wipe powers, replaced by Super form augmentations like Super Flickies and the hammer volley), but my point is about Sonic and Knuckles specifically, the other Origins characters are just a little trivia.

Hyper Sonic kinda destroys the eyes as well.

Isn't it weird that Tails can only use Super Emeralds to turn Super? This wasn't the case in Mania.

Actually, Tails has the Super Emerald restriction related to turning Super lifted in Origins, his Hyper transformation is just renamed back to Super in Origins Plus due to a back retcon along with Amy's transformation are just named that way due to the retcon that took place in base Origins. Have you played seen or played Origins before Amy's release and after her release as a classic playable character in Origins plus before?

Here's the video illustrating Tails' restriction lift in Origins in relation to Super: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO4N9Hw9oGg
Get updated, bro, seriously.

Also, I agree that Hyper should be redesigned to be less epileptic from 3&K/Origins design.

[HyperManBX]

Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF a écrit :

HyperManBX a écrit :

I only brought up Colors because I felt they had an opportunity to bring back Hyper in the way that was suggested - only a scripted event reserved for the final boss, and not replacing Super.

My only problem with the color blast thing was that I found it a bit lame - with the whole announcer thing, like they couldn't come up with a cooler name than "color blast"? The idea of the wisps being the mode of defeating the final boss fit very nicely, but I think it would have fit better into the sonic lore if those wisps had caused a transformation related to a series staple - the chaos emeralds.

That also would have provided a small visual reward to players who bothered to collect all 7 emeralds. I say "small" reward because if you get to that point you have already won, it's just a matter of clicking the "A" button, so it really wouldn't matter. You don't even get to use Super in that fight anyway, so it's something - I guess. And Super is useless in that game anyway, so a slightly more epic scripted event at the end would suffice to acknowledge the effort to collect the 7 emeralds in the way suggested - the reward is the reappearance of a form that is scripted, reserved for the final boss, is not overused, does not replace Super, and does not contribute to "power creep".

Actually, it does do the last point. If you remember Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Sonic Origins (including Plus), both Hyper Sonic and Hyper Knuckles have screen-wipe attacks...

Well, no. What I'm proposing would be a scripted event of only seconds. You wouldn't "play" as Hyper freely, you wouldn't have the opportunity to use a screen-wiping attack. At that point, it would be little more than aesthetics, flashy new old form appears for a more epic finale, as a reward for collecting all those emeralds.

Ikagura a écrit :

Hyper Sonic kinda destroys the eyes as well.

I don't know. The flashing never bothered me. If they really wanted to bring back Hyper, but if fears of intense flashing being a problem was holding them back, they could simply slow the flashing down. I don't really think that's an issue.

[Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF]

HyperManBX a écrit :

Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF a écrit :

Actually, it does do the last point. If you remember Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Sonic Origins (including Plus), both Hyper Sonic and Hyper Knuckles have screen-wipe attacks...

Well, no. What I'm proposing would be a scripted event of only seconds. You wouldn't "play" as Hyper freely, you wouldn't have the opportunity to use a screen-wiping attack. At that point, it would be little more than aesthetics, flashy new old form appears for a more epic finale, as a reward for collecting all those emeralds.

Ikagura a écrit :

Hyper Sonic kinda destroys the eyes as well.

I don't know. The flashing never bothered me. If they really wanted to bring back Hyper, but fears of intense flashing being a problem was holding them back, they could simply slow the flashing down. I don't really think that's an issue.

Well, isn't that just out of line and just takes Cyber's approach instead of being a fully fledged transformation with lore and all?

[HyperManBX]

Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF a écrit :

HyperManBX a écrit :

Well, no. What I'm proposing would be a scripted event of only seconds. You wouldn't "play" as Hyper freely, you wouldn't have the opportunity to use a screen-wiping attack. At that point, it would be little more than aesthetics, flashy new old form appears for a more epic finale, as a reward for collecting all those emeralds.


I don't know. The flashing never bothered me. If they really wanted to bring back Hyper, but fears of intense flashing being a problem was holding them back, they could simply slow the flashing down. I don't really think that's an issue.

Well, isn't that just out of line and just takes Cyber's approach instead of being a fully fledged transformation with lore and all?

I thought that was the kind of thing you wanted. Besides, there would be lore, the form had appeared in a previous game where you could freely play it - it has history. Teasing it briefly seems like a good reintroduction for it to be explored further in future games. How would they implement it in those future games? Idk, probably similarly, but with more screen time and characters actually talking about. So, it would have lore and all, it just wouldn't be playable like how Super is (assuming they make Super playable like in various other Sonic titles, both classic and modern).

[Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF]

HyperManBX a écrit :

Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF a écrit :

Well, isn't that just out of line and just takes Cyber's approach instead of being a fully fledged transformation with lore and all?

I thought that was the kind of thing you wanted. Besides, there would be lore, the form had appeared in a previous game where you could freely play it - it has history. Teasing it briefly seems like a good reintroduction for it to be explored further in future games. How would they implement it in those future games? Idk, probably similarly, but with more screen time and characters actually talking about. So, it would have lore and all, it just wouldn't be playable like how Super is (assuming they make Super playable like in various other Sonic titles, both classic and modern).

Listen mate, when I mentioned Hyper's re-introduction in the Sonic series, I specifically put emphasis and focus on the Starfall Super being used as its guide for lore and requirement explanations. There was no mention of using Colors and everything related to it whatsoever, instead I specifically meant Super Sonic 2 (referred to as Starfall Super) instead of Colors' abilities. Did you slip or get the wrong idea? Well, I got you covered then. Check this transformation over at the wiki (that's the same transformation this thread is named after): https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Sonic_2

[HyperManBX]

Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF a écrit :

HyperManBX a écrit :

I thought that was the kind of thing you wanted. Besides, there would be lore, the form had appeared in a previous game where you could freely play it - it has history. Teasing it briefly seems like a good reintroduction for it to be explored further in future games. How would they implement it in those future games? Idk, probably similarly, but with more screen time and characters actually talking about. So, it would have lore and all, it just wouldn't be playable like how Super is (assuming they make Super playable like in various other Sonic titles, both classic and modern).

Listen mate, when I mentioned Hyper's re-introduction in the Sonic series, I specifically put emphasis and focus on the Starfall Super being used as its guide for lore and requirement explanations. There was no mention of using Colors and everything related to it whatsoever, instead I specifically meant Super Sonic 2 (referred to as Starfall Super) instead of Colors' abilities. Did you slip or get the wrong idea? Well, I got you covered then. Check this transformation over at the wiki (that's the same transformation this thread is named after): https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Sonic_2

I'm sorry, I guess there was some miscommunication, I didn't mean to imply that you brought up Colors - I did, I brought it up. But I said that I only brought it up to illustrate a scenario wherein Hyper could have been reintroduced according to what you said you wanted - for it to be like Starfall Super. Rather, I should say I proposed a "lowest common denominator" implementation that everyone could agree on, one that everyone could agree it wouldn't ruin the series, not necessarily one that everyone would agree would be their preferred. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding, I wasn't attacking you or trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to contribute to the conversation.

[Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF]

HyperManBX a écrit :

Shadow_The_Worm | Titan.TF a écrit :

Listen mate, when I mentioned Hyper's re-introduction in the Sonic series, I specifically put emphasis and focus on the Starfall Super being used as its guide for lore and requirement explanations. There was no mention of using Colors and everything related to it whatsoever, instead I specifically meant Super Sonic 2 (referred to as Starfall Super) instead of Colors' abilities. Did you slip or get the wrong idea? Well, I got you covered then. Check this transformation over at the wiki (that's the same transformation this thread is named after): https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Sonic_2

I'm sorry, I guess there was some miscommunication, I didn't mean to imply that you brought up Colors - I did, I brought it up. But I said that I only brought it up to illustrate a scenario wherein Hyper could have been reintroduced according to what you said you wanted - for it to be like Starfall Super. Rather, I should say I proposed a "lowest common denominator" implementation that everyone could agree on, one that everyone could agree it wouldn't ruin the series, not necessarily one that everyone would agree would be their preferred. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding, I wasn't attacking you or trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to contribute to the conversation.

Of course, no offense taken, mate.