I think Sawblade Launchers need a nerf.

[BlaixenU]

If you look at the alternate piercer, then its apparent that its designed around being wielded by a more professional player who has incorporated quickswitching into their playstyle to an extent. It seems that the sawblade launchers aim to do this too, trading the requirement of having the nailgun out for extended periods for it to do anything with the gaurantee that your projectiles will deal damage even when you switch away, but I really think that the current way the sawblade launcher works is super unbalanced.

Firstly, the Sawblade launcher works way too well as its own weapon until you run out of ammo. The thing shreds anything that is grounded for pretty much no cost aside from having to switch to the weapon and also place a magnet. If this were a proper 'good for the good, bad for the bad' weapon, then there'd be a downside for new players to use. Piercer has the slower firing rate being an issue if you don't switch off, but the sawblade launcher does somewhat of an easier job hitting grounded targets than the nailgun, with the only issue being airborne enemies like mindflayers.

Secondly, the Sawblade launcher doesn't properly reward using other weapons while the sawtrap does its thing. After using the sawgun for so long, a person can attain the habit of placing down a trap then trying to maximize dps by not only luring enemies into that trap, but also by outputting their own damage via the other weapons in their arsenal. The reason of this is a mix of a lack of necessity and encouragement. The weapon performs so good in a vacuum already that for new players, they can just continue holding m1 and win like that. It doesn't take much skill to use the sawgun effectively with the only exception being magnet placement, but aside from that, all you need to do is place a magnet down, shoot out saws, and now you have whats effectively an AoE screwdriver. Lack of encouragement doesn't aid either, as there's nothing enticing about using another weapon instead of placing down the full sawtrap.

edit: summarized and more straightforward version of my point (added on request):

my post states that among the issues with the launcher is that theres no real incentive to damage more beyond the launcher can output. if, for example, there was something where enemies being damaged from other sources would temporarily make that enemy take more saw damage, i could see that as a great counterweight to a plain damage nerf

I don't have a real solution, and I hope that this post creates a discussion about the balance of this weapon.

My own idea would be that saws' damage would be proportional to the damage you're dealing without the sawgun at that time, however that may be implemented

[super 9]

this would kill the speedrunning community so it isnt happening

[kevin.lasher]

no

[SHOCKOUT]

Nuh uh

[svindel]

solution: just buff everything else

[super 9]

Originally posted by svindel:

solution: just buff everything else

thats essentialy just what brutal will be

[BlaixenU]

Originally posted by super luigi cheVrolet 2006:

this would kill the speedrunning community so it isnt happening

oh my god... more brain needed to kill those soldiers that are in the far corners of the room... speedrunning has fallen...

in all seriousness, i find it laughable how people think about speedrunners the moment anything weapon balance related is said, when it should be the casual or cybergrind audience that should be concerned since all speedrunners do is execute pre-made techniques as opposed to casual/cybergrind players who play with pure skill

though, stuff like the freezenuke nerf was pretty much needed since it was so nuts that even a casual or cybergrind player could abuse to hell

[BlaixenU]

my post states that among the issues with the launcher is that theres no real incentive to damage more beyond the launcher can output. if, for example, there was something where enemies being damaged from other sources would temporarily make that enemy take more saw damage, i could see that as a great counterweight to a plain damage nerf

[calembredaine]

^that post is way more straightforward to understand than what you originally posted imo. i'd say you should integrate it to the op. maybe reformulate other issues in a similar amount of words.

anyway, a first lead i'd try would be to study playstyles overusing sawtraps and playstyles which you believe make a "healthy" use of them (i.e. they're shot often enough to feel useful but the player still spends a good amount of time using other weapons to kill everything). then, should they be distinct enough, you could balance the reload rate, clip, freshness meter etc. around the latter.
idea's that if sawmagnets are such powerhouses, maybe they should be a more limited resource rather than have nerfed raw damage.

if reducing availability convinces you, then i'd find it funny to experiment with a non linear reload rate on the blue launcher. for example, going from 3/10 blades to 4/10 would take longer than from 4/10 to 5/10 and so on. if we're lucky, that could create starker trade-offs between short-term dpm and long-term availability than a linear reload rate. game design-wise that'd be a bonus.

now that's making the assumption they really are as powerful as you claim. honestly idc, i'm just here for the thought experiment.

Originally posted by BlaixenU:

in all seriousness, i find it laughable how people think about speedrunners the moment anything weapon balance related is said, when it should be the casual or cybergrind audience that should be concerned since all speedrunners do is execute pre-made techniques as opposed to casual/cybergrind players who play with pure skill

pretty arrogant claim ngl. guess playing a piano partition isn't pure skill, while we're at it.
no idea why you'd even put it that way. afaik balance not caring about speedrunners is simply because they're not the main audience to begin with.

[BlaixenU]

^that post is way more straightforward to understand than what you originally posted imo. i'd say you should integrate it to the op. maybe reformulate other issues in a similar amount of words.

yessir

afaik balance not caring about speedrunners is simply because they're not the main audience to begin with.

you'd be surprised by how much people think that healthy changes to weapon balance would be detrimental to speedrunning, as though speedrunning isnt literally the art of using what you've got designed for the casual audience to optimize and squeeze into peak performance.

anyway, a first lead i'd try would be to study playstyles overusing sawtraps and playstyles which you believe make a "healthy" use of them (i.e. they're shot often enough to feel useful but the player still spends a good amount of time using other weapons to kill everything). then, should they be distinct enough, you could balance the reload rate, clip, freshness meter etc. around the latter.

that's what i want to encourage. higher level cg players use the sawgun launcher for a quick trap before absolutely decimating the enemies in the arena. the way their playstyle differs from that of someone just mindlessly spamming saws and magnets into a chokepoint is that higher level cg players actually switch off the sawblade launcher once theyre satisfied with the strength of the sawtrap they place, but newer players favour just placing the sawtrap and running around in the orbital radius of the saws for both quick damage and quick healing.

By not only nerfing the base damage of saws, but also increasing the effective damage of saws against enemies recently hit by damage that isnt saws, you not only tackle the issue of the sawblade launcher being a crutch for new players, while also incentivizing better players to use their arsenal to its fullest to squeeze out all the potential that the sawgun offers

[super 9]

Originally posted by BlaixenU:

Originally posted by super luigi cheVrolet 2006:

this would kill the speedrunning community so it isnt happening

oh my god... more brain needed to kill those soldiers that are in the far corners of the room... speedrunning has fallen...

in all seriousness, i find it laughable how people think about speedrunners the moment anything weapon balance related is said, when it should be the casual or cybergrind audience that should be concerned since all speedrunners do is execute pre-made techniques as opposed to casual/cybergrind players who play with pure skill

though, stuff like the freezenuke nerf was pretty much needed since it was so nuts that even a casual or cybergrind player could abuse to hell

if the sawblade launcher was nerfed literally every instakill would stop working, which would invalidate YEARS of runs
also the sawblade launcher is not nearly as op to warrant a nerf, even if new players just use it as a crutch for quick damage and healing they will quickly learn that their strategy does not work when you need to deal with more enemies than just fodder

[BlaixenU]

Originally posted by super luigi cheVrolet 2006:

Originally posted by BlaixenU:

oh my god... more brain needed to kill those soldiers that are in the far corners of the room... speedrunning has fallen...

in all seriousness, i find it laughable how people think about speedrunners the moment anything weapon balance related is said, when it should be the casual or cybergrind audience that should be concerned since all speedrunners do is execute pre-made techniques as opposed to casual/cybergrind players who play with pure skill

though, stuff like the freezenuke nerf was pretty much needed since it was so nuts that even a casual or cybergrind player could abuse to hell

if the sawblade launcher was nerfed literally every instakill would stop working, which would invalidate YEARS of runs
also the sawblade launcher is not nearly as op to warrant a nerf, even if new players just use it as a crutch for quick damage and healing they will quickly learn that their strategy does not work when you need to deal with more enemies than just fodder

you do know one full sawtrap can kill a whole ass cerberus, right? so many peoples' complaints with the weapon is that it feels like a place 'n forget weapon because it doesnt demand you to do much after the saws have been shot out.

also, so what if years of instakills stop working? speedrunners who use saws often combo the saws with other damage options (see: first cerberus in 0-5 killed in any% with a sawtrap mixed with shotswaps) and even if they dont, then they can just update the routes like theyve been doing every single update

[super 9]

Originally posted by BlaixenU:

Originally posted by super luigi cheVrolet 2006:

if the sawblade launcher was nerfed literally every instakill would stop working, which would invalidate YEARS of runs
also the sawblade launcher is not nearly as op to warrant a nerf, even if new players just use it as a crutch for quick damage and healing they will quickly learn that their strategy does not work when you need to deal with more enemies than just fodder

you do know one full sawtrap can kill a whole ass cerberus, right? so many peoples' complaints with the weapon is that it feels like a place 'n forget weapon because it doesnt demand you to do much after the saws have been shot out.

also, so what if years of instakills stop working? speedrunners who use saws often combo the saws with other damage options (see: first cerberus in 0-5 killed in any% with a sawtrap mixed with shotswaps) and even if they dont, then they can just update the routes like theyve been doing every single update

yes
it can
but you use the entire saw trap on one enemy then
its as efficent as using the nailgun, and there are WAY better ways of killing a cerberus
for example:
railcoining
coin punch into slab charge shot
srs cannon up close into punch
4 coin ultraricoshot
sticking a magnet on it and setting up 4 charged rockets in the air (which doubles as a cuadruple nuke)
and just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ quickswapping them

sawblade traps are better off being used to kill large amount of fodder and swordmachines (same thing), if you decide to use them to kill a cerberus you just blew 10 saws on a single enemy that you coulve used to help kill a group of swordmachines

[super 9]

"so what if the instakills stop working" people spent weeks, even months grinding the ♥♥♥♥ out of the boss levels to get their runs, if hakita drops an update that suddently invalidates 90% of the leaderboard i dont think people would be very happy
and you know what the "new strat" would be? downpatching, because deadcoins have to be combined with saw or nail traps to get good damage, so people would have to once again downgrade their games just to speedrun the level again, do you really think people should have to downgrade their games just to be able to stand a chance on the leaderboards?

[SHOCKOUT]

Originally posted by BlaixenU:

Originally posted by super luigi cheVrolet 2006:

this would kill the speedrunning community so it isnt happening

oh my god... more brain needed to kill those soldiers that are in the far corners of the room... speedrunning has fallen...

in all seriousness, i find it laughable how people think about speedrunners the moment anything weapon balance related is said, when it should be the casual or cybergrind audience that should be concerned since all speedrunners do is execute pre-made techniques as opposed to casual/cybergrind players who play with pure skill

though, stuff like the freezenuke nerf was pretty much needed since it was so nuts that even a casual or cybergrind player could abuse to hell

P-1 wrs Will be gone after this lol

[Wequer]

Originally posted by BlaixenU:

If you look at the alternate piercer, then its apparent that its designed around being wielded by a more professional player who has incorporated quickswitching into their playstyle to an extent.

Alternative marksman? Or why do you put next to Sawblade Launchers?

Sawblade doesn`t need a nerf (could be better tho). Saws provide easily usable potential, which won`t provide great result by itself. If you don`t like dps, then how it differs from other weapons? If you want to remove degenerate playstyle, think of a punish or a twist (better to test rather of hope to catch the fly). Do not overcomplicate it, it`s not worth it.

Originally posted by BlaixenU:

my post states that among the issues with the launcher is that theres no real incentive to damage more beyond the launcher can output. if, for example, there was something where enemies being damaged from other sources would temporarily make that enemy take more saw damage, i could see that as a great counterweight to a plain damage nerf

About non-interaction? It`s more of a problem, that we do not have many functions from saws. But locking the weapon behind the scheme will restrict. Rather expand on what sawgun can do (or make them do something else).

Originally posted by BlaixenU:

By not only nerfing the base damage of saws, but also increasing the effective damage of saws against enemies recently hit by damage that isnt saws, you not only tackle the issue of the sawblade launcher being a crutch for new players, while also incentivizing better players to use their arsenal to its fullest to squeeze out all the potential that the sawgun offers

Newer players would stay in place, while shooting, and better players will have more complicated gun, than it should be. It doesn`t sound like ULTRAKILL.