Does anyone else not like the new style system?

[Dr.Drake]

I mean before you were rewarded for switching between weapons but you weren't actively punished. Which has changed now. I switch between weapons fairly frequently but being effectively forced to switch is just annoying and the new system feels kind of awkward to me.

[Winter]

the quamp liver の投稿を引用：

i dont really care too much but i think ive gotten ultrakill like 2 times playing through the levels since act 2 dropped, i think this update balanced too many things around cyber grind

And I've gotten ULTRAKILL too many times to count, but the important thing is that it isn't 90% of the time anymore. Before, every rank below ULTRAKILL may as well have been an insult. Now getting it means something. When it's rarer, it's more special.

[πe = 3^2 = g = 10]

I think freshness is fine, but having weapons become stale/dull seems unnecessary. Most weapons already have some sort of cooldown that gently encourages weapon switching anyway. Punishing "staleness" in combination with giving style a tangible impact on gameplay results in a system that railroads players into constantly cycling through weapons just for the sake of it, and subsequently homogenizes the unique roles of each weapon.

[Nines]

Everybody's talking about the game forcing you to play in a certain way, but style has very little impact on the gameplay.

1: having high style gets rid of hard damage quicker.

2: getting all p-ranks is required for prime sanctums.

The entire point of a style system in games like ultrakill and devil may cry are to encourage a type of play that the dev thinks will be the most fun for the playerbase. However, there is practically nothing preventing you from playing the way you want if your idea of fun is different from the developer's.

Of course, this change would still be bad if most players disliked it. However, from what I've seen, most people enjoy the change, and found the type of play it incentivises to be more fun.

[Morphic]

The Tids の投稿を引用：

I think freshness is fine, but having weapons become stale/dull seems unnecessary. Most weapons already have some sort of cooldown that gently encourages weapon switching anyway. Punishing "staleness" in combination with giving style a tangible impact on gameplay results in a system that railroads players into constantly cycling through weapons just for the sake of it, and subsequently homogenizes the unique roles of each weapon.

That's kind of my feeling as well. Prior to the change, I had my own way of dealing with things using the guns I favored and I was able to get ULTRAKILL because I wasn't getting hit.

While I totally understand ULTRAKILL rank should be "special" or "mean something" ... it's not like it was a completely ezpz thing to get before. You had to actually be good with whatever weapon(s) you liked, which, IMO, is kind of the point to ULTRAKILL Rank. You found a way to play without getting hit and have gotten good at using the weapon(s) that you enjoy.

I like that Style mitigates Hard Damage(and ULTRAKILL ignores it). I'm cool with "Freshness" but I don't like feeling "forced" to use other weapons for X seconds because I've used my favorites for "too long".

Nines の投稿を引用：

Everybody's talking about the game forcing you to play in a certain way, but style has very little impact on the gameplay.

The entire point of a style system in games like ultrakill and devil may cry are to encourage a type of play that the dev thinks will be the most fun for the playerbase. However, there is practically nothing preventing you from playing the way you want if your idea of fun is different from the developer's.

Except you can get P-Ranks without needing to get ULTRAKILL ranks (or even using advanced techniques). I managed to P-Rank Act 1 just using 3 guns, no whiplash or knuckleblaster or slam storage, etc. because I had gotten "good" at my way of playing....(still working thru Act 2 tho lol)

Which is arguably the point of Style Systems. Getting SSS Rank in Devil May Cry is actually not that hard if you know how to string combos while not getting hit. E.g. I've SSS by just using 1-3 weapons because I found combo strings that I enjoy using or ways of playing. (Like using Yamato and Teleport Cancel spam) I'm not spamming a single move over and over, instead I "created" my own combo and have gotten good at using it.

[skylex157]

Nines の投稿を引用：

Everybody's talking about the game forcing you to play in a certain way, but style has very little impact on the gameplay.

1: having high style gets rid of hard damage quicker.

2: getting all p-ranks is required for prime sanctums.

The entire point of a style system in games like ultrakill and devil may cry are to encourage a type of play that the dev thinks will be the most fun for the playerbase. However, there is practically nothing preventing you from playing the way you want if your idea of fun is different from the developer's.

Of course, this change would still be bad if most players disliked it. However, from what I've seen, most people enjoy the change, and found the type of play it incentivises to be more fun.

the thing is, a part of the fanbase didn't come to ultrakill to be forced in the slightest, the came for the fun of useing the weapons and the thrill, which was what ultrakill used to excel, you could literally go the way you wanted through the game and there was no penalty, only a lack of bonuses, while you could say the same about the new style, hard damage sticks for longer when lower than S, so you are actively punished for not getting to that rank

personally, i don't even notice the change because i already play the way hakita wanted me to play but some people have seen their way of playing their favorite sandbox hindered, me included, for the whiplash change, as i used it to close the gap of 1 meter from my enemies to ensure shotgun hits and that generates extreme amounts of hard damage anyways

i even went back to the saw your heart update because of how much i don't want to play without the whip, because i feel punished for playing my way instead and if i wanted that i would have gone play doom eternal

[Nines]

skylex157 の投稿を引用：

Nines の投稿を引用：

Everybody's talking about the game forcing you to play in a certain way, but style has very little impact on the gameplay.

1: having high style gets rid of hard damage quicker.

2: getting all p-ranks is required for prime sanctums.

The entire point of a style system in games like ultrakill and devil may cry are to encourage a type of play that the dev thinks will be the most fun for the playerbase. However, there is practically nothing preventing you from playing the way you want if your idea of fun is different from the developer's.

Of course, this change would still be bad if most players disliked it. However, from what I've seen, most people enjoy the change, and found the type of play it incentivises to be more fun.

the thing is, a part of the fanbase didn't come to ultrakill to be forced in the slightest, the came for the fun of useing the weapons and the thrill, which was what ultrakill used to excel, you could literally go the way you wanted through the game and there was no penalty, only a lack of bonuses, while you could say the same about the new style, hard damage sticks for longer when lower than S, so you are actively punished for not getting to that rank

personally, i don't even notice the change because i already play the way hakita wanted me to play but some people have seen their way of playing their favorite sandbox hindered, me included, for the whiplash change, as i used it to close the gap of 1 meter from my enemies to ensure shotgun hits and that generates extreme amounts of hard damage anyways

i even went back to the saw your heart update because of how much i don't want to play without the whip, because i feel punished for playing my way instead and if i wanted that i would have gone play doom eternal

There isn't really anything forcing people to play in the way that gets the most style though.

Only the p-doors and hard damage are impacted by style. Hard damage when you are below s rank regenerates at the same rate as it did before the patch, and in my experience the only things that give you a noticeable amount of hard damage are using the whiplash and the black hole projectiles created by minos and flesh prison. There is quite a bit of content locked behind the p-doors, but if a player really wants to play the prime sanctums they can reach it with noclip from the hacks menu (according to some random person on steam forums, so correct me if I am wrong).

Besides these two minor things, the player receives no penalty other than a low score at the end of the level. So, I really don't see how the new style system is forcing people to play in a certain way. Encouraging? Pushing? Sure. But it's not forcing.

[sendmefish]

I feel like I'm the only one who kinda likes it

[Winter]

I'd like the idea of keeping the new style system except for removing or toning down the style penalties. No hard damage for skilled players? Yes please! Not being allowed to use my favorite weapon for more than 3 seconds at a time? No thanks. Cap the minimum style to 1.0x, maybe 0.75x, and let freshness be a bonus. Before the update I used to use the revolver practically every other shot, chaining between the marksman and the slab piercer like I was John Wick, but now doing that gets me ZERO STYLE for my coins.
Not even half. ZERO. I dislike that.

[skylex157]

Nines の投稿を引用：

skylex157 の投稿を引用：

the thing is, a part of the fanbase didn't come to ultrakill to be forced in the slightest, the came for the fun of useing the weapons and the thrill, which was what ultrakill used to excel, you could literally go the way you wanted through the game and there was no penalty, only a lack of bonuses, while you could say the same about the new style, hard damage sticks for longer when lower than S, so you are actively punished for not getting to that rank

personally, i don't even notice the change because i already play the way hakita wanted me to play but some people have seen their way of playing their favorite sandbox hindered, me included, for the whiplash change, as i used it to close the gap of 1 meter from my enemies to ensure shotgun hits and that generates extreme amounts of hard damage anyways

i even went back to the saw your heart update because of how much i don't want to play without the whip, because i feel punished for playing my way instead and if i wanted that i would have gone play doom eternal

There isn't really anything forcing people to play in the way that gets the most style though.

Only the p-doors and hard damage are impacted by style. Hard damage when you are below s rank regenerates at the same rate as it did before the patch, and in my experience the only things that give you a noticeable amount of hard damage are using the whiplash and the black hole projectiles created by minos and flesh prison. There is quite a bit of content locked behind the p-doors, but if a player really wants to play the prime sanctums they can reach it with noclip from the hacks menu (according to some random person on steam forums, so correct me if I am wrong).

Besides these two minor things, the player receives no penalty other than a low score at the end of the level. So, I really don't see how the new style system is forcing people to play in a certain way. Encouraging? Pushing? Sure. But it's not forcing.

it may not force you in the literal sense, but what matters the most in game design is how it feels, punishing you for being at low score feel foring you into playing well and punishing you for using the whip makes a ton of people feel like it's worthless, in game design, it doesn't matter how balanced something is, but the feeling of balance

furthermore, DMC or bayonneta has never had a relation between style and gameplay, literally only in the last DMC game has something resembling this in the form of SSS taunts with everyone, final judgement with vergil and a free sin devil trigger attack with dante, all of this are bonuses, and mayor ones, doing super powerful attacks or getting taunts that maintain your style a lot more

this is punishing the use of a tool and making the game more tedious

speaking of which, it has nothing to do with minos, locked content or P ranks, we don't care about those, we are talking about pure fun and enjoyment, which has been thrown out for balance without any way legitimate way to go back, there is no way to play like we liked to play without doing sacrifices and that feels very bad

[Nines]

skylex157 の投稿を引用：

Nines の投稿を引用：

There isn't really anything forcing people to play in the way that gets the most style though.

Only the p-doors and hard damage are impacted by style. Hard damage when you are below s rank regenerates at the same rate as it did before the patch, and in my experience the only things that give you a noticeable amount of hard damage are using the whiplash and the black hole projectiles created by minos and flesh prison. There is quite a bit of content locked behind the p-doors, but if a player really wants to play the prime sanctums they can reach it with noclip from the hacks menu (according to some random person on steam forums, so correct me if I am wrong).

Besides these two minor things, the player receives no penalty other than a low score at the end of the level. So, I really don't see how the new style system is forcing people to play in a certain way. Encouraging? Pushing? Sure. But it's not forcing.

it may not force you in the literal sense, but what matters the most in game design is how it feels, punishing you for being at low score feel foring you into playing well and punishing you for using the whip makes a ton of people feel like it's worthless, in game design, it doesn't matter how balanced something is, but the feeling of balance

furthermore, DMC or bayonneta has never had a relation between style and gameplay, literally only in the last DMC game has something resembling this in the form of SSS taunts with everyone, final judgement with vergil and a free sin devil trigger attack with dante, all of this are bonuses, and mayor ones, doing super powerful attacks or getting taunts that maintain your style a lot more

this is punishing the use of a tool and making the game more tedious

speaking of which, it has nothing to do with minos, locked content or P ranks, we don't care about those, we are talking about pure fun and enjoyment, which has been thrown out for balance without any way legitimate way to go back, there is no way to play like we liked to play without doing sacrifices and that feels very bad

If I understand correctly, you're saying that the only problem you have with the new style system is the way it interacts with hard damage. Would your position on the style system be the same if getting style worked the same as before, but hard damage still got reduced faster at high style?

[skylex157]

Nines の投稿を引用：

skylex157 の投稿を引用：

it may not force you in the literal sense, but what matters the most in game design is how it feels, punishing you for being at low score feel foring you into playing well and punishing you for using the whip makes a ton of people feel like it's worthless, in game design, it doesn't matter how balanced something is, but the feeling of balance

furthermore, DMC or bayonneta has never had a relation between style and gameplay, literally only in the last DMC game has something resembling this in the form of SSS taunts with everyone, final judgement with vergil and a free sin devil trigger attack with dante, all of this are bonuses, and mayor ones, doing super powerful attacks or getting taunts that maintain your style a lot more

this is punishing the use of a tool and making the game more tedious

speaking of which, it has nothing to do with minos, locked content or P ranks, we don't care about those, we are talking about pure fun and enjoyment, which has been thrown out for balance without any way legitimate way to go back, there is no way to play like we liked to play without doing sacrifices and that feels very bad

If I understand correctly, you're saying that the only problem you have with the new style system is the way it interacts with hard damage. Would your position on the style system be the same if getting style worked the same as before, but hard damage still got reduced faster at high style?

yes the problem is that it interacts with a negative instead of giving a bonus, getting ultrakill should give you a win-more power, not a survival one, if you are on ultrakill, chances are, you wouldn't have hard damage that wasn't caused by whip

i think a much cooler think would be doing ultrakill actually hard to get but getting it improved your damage in some way, making it faster to clear rooms and get Ps, this improvement can be either to all weapons (which i think would be meh) or extra damage/effects on the railgun, this is merely a brainstorm but that's how i would implement an incentive to play in a specific manner in my game

[Nines]

skylex157 の投稿を引用：

Nines の投稿を引用：

If I understand correctly, you're saying that the only problem you have with the new style system is the way it interacts with hard damage. Would your position on the style system be the same if getting style worked the same as before, but hard damage still got reduced faster at high style?

yes the problem is that it interacts with a negative instead of giving a bonus, getting ultrakill should give you a win-more power, not a survival one, if you are on ultrakill, chances are, you wouldn't have hard damage that wasn't caused by whip

i think a much cooler think would be doing ultrakill actually hard to get but getting it improved your damage in some way, making it faster to clear rooms and get Ps, this improvement can be either to all weapons (which i think would be meh) or extra damage/effects on the railgun, this is merely a brainstorm but that's how i would implement an incentive to play in a specific manner in my game

I agree that it would be cooler to give the player a bonus of some kind for being on high style (my idea would be to reduce cooldowns for stuff like coins, railcannon, and nailgun). The current system isn't perfect.

However, like you said, if you are at high style you most likely won't have hard damage unless it was caused by the whiplash. The current system of hard damage removal doesn't punish you for being at low style (hard damage comes back at the same rate as it did before the patch) or reward you for being at high style (you will have at most maybe 30 hard damage if you are at high style). The exception is the whiplash.

If the player is getting hard damage while at high style, then that will be due to using the whiplash. This fits the idea of "getting ultrakill should give you a win-more power", with the player being able to use the whiplash more frequently and in more ways when you get high style.

[skylex157]

Nines の投稿を引用：

skylex157 の投稿を引用：

yes the problem is that it interacts with a negative instead of giving a bonus, getting ultrakill should give you a win-more power, not a survival one, if you are on ultrakill, chances are, you wouldn't have hard damage that wasn't caused by whip

i think a much cooler think would be doing ultrakill actually hard to get but getting it improved your damage in some way, making it faster to clear rooms and get Ps, this improvement can be either to all weapons (which i think would be meh) or extra damage/effects on the railgun, this is merely a brainstorm but that's how i would implement an incentive to play in a specific manner in my game

I agree that it would be cooler to give the player a bonus of some kind for being on high style (my idea would be to reduce cooldowns for stuff like coins, railcannon, and nailgun). The current system isn't perfect.

However, like you said, if you are at high style you most likely won't have hard damage unless it was caused by the whiplash. The current system of hard damage removal doesn't punish you for being at low style (hard damage comes back at the same rate as it did before the patch) or reward you for being at high style (you will have at most maybe 30 hard damage if you are at high style). The exception is the whiplash.

If the player is getting hard damage while at high style, then that will be due to using the whiplash. This fits the idea of "getting ultrakill should give you a win-more power", with the player being able to use the whiplash more frequently and in more ways when you get high style.

but whiplash is at it's weakest when at full health and ultrakill rank, it is not win more, using the whip on minor enemies doesn't accomplish anything you couldn't already do with any mid to long range weapon/combo and whipping to big enemies is putting you on danger, increasing your changes of losing health and style while also locking your movement to a straight line towards the opponent, which most of the big ones have ways to punish, forcing you to dash while whipping or stop whipping

using whip is not win more inherently, as opposed to more damage, less CD, or an ultimate attack, hook still has advantages and disadvantages that because of how the style and hard damage works, are amplified

who cares you can down a maurice with 3 shotgun swaps if you got hit by his barrage and you are at SS and 80 health?

whip punishes use, not overuse and that makes it taxing to use, you have to calculate the risk every time instead of going for it and knowing the second or third time you use it, you will be punished

[Nines]

skylex157 の投稿を引用：

Nines の投稿を引用：

I agree that it would be cooler to give the player a bonus of some kind for being on high style (my idea would be to reduce cooldowns for stuff like coins, railcannon, and nailgun). The current system isn't perfect.

However, like you said, if you are at high style you most likely won't have hard damage unless it was caused by the whiplash. The current system of hard damage removal doesn't punish you for being at low style (hard damage comes back at the same rate as it did before the patch) or reward you for being at high style (you will have at most maybe 30 hard damage if you are at high style). The exception is the whiplash.

If the player is getting hard damage while at high style, then that will be due to using the whiplash. This fits the idea of "getting ultrakill should give you a win-more power", with the player being able to use the whiplash more frequently and in more ways when you get high style.

but whiplash is at it's weakest when at full health and ultrakill rank, it is not win more, using the whip on minor enemies doesn't accomplish anything you couldn't already do with any mid to long range weapon/combo and whipping to big enemies is putting you on danger, increasing your changes of losing health and style while also locking your movement to a straight line towards the opponent, which most of the big ones have ways to punish, forcing you to dash while whipping or stop whipping

using whip is not win more inherently, as opposed to more damage, less CD, or an ultimate attack, hook still has advantages and disadvantages that because of how the style and hard damage works, are amplified

who cares you can down a maurice with 3 shotgun swaps if you got hit by his barrage and you are at SS and 80 health?

whip punishes use, not overuse and that makes it taxing to use, you have to calculate the risk every time instead of going for it and knowing the second or third time you use it, you will be punished

Lets compare the practical things you can do with whiplash when at low and high style.

At low style:
1. You can whiplash a heavy enemy and cancel it with a punch to fling yourself towards it, at the cost of a bit of hard damage. (this is the most frequent way I use whiplash)
2. You can use the whiplash at close range to quickly get yourself into point blank range against a large enemy, at the cost of a bit of hard damage. (I find myself doing this against malicious faces and virtues when I am in a spot where I can't jump to them).
3. You can recover from getting knocked far off stage at the cost of a lot of hard damage. puts you in a bad situation, but your only other option is to fall and take damage.
4. You can use grapple points to move at no cost.

At high style:
1. You can do the things mentioned in the low style section more frequently due to having hard damage regenerate faster or not exist. (probably the biggest advantage of being at high style)
2. You can whiplash a heavy enemy far away to get to it quickly (virtues and malicious faces when they are charging up an explosion are safe. You can also do it to something like a cerberus or malicious face, but you will have to dash to avoid projectiles making it more risky and I don't normally do this).
3. If you are not at max health, you can pull a small enemy to you and heal. Not common, but can be useful in a pinch. (only at ultrakill rank).

You get quite a few new options and improvements upon old options when at high style.

[skylex157]

Nines の投稿を引用：

skylex157 の投稿を引用：

but whiplash is at it's weakest when at full health and ultrakill rank, it is not win more, using the whip on minor enemies doesn't accomplish anything you couldn't already do with any mid to long range weapon/combo and whipping to big enemies is putting you on danger, increasing your changes of losing health and style while also locking your movement to a straight line towards the opponent, which most of the big ones have ways to punish, forcing you to dash while whipping or stop whipping

using whip is not win more inherently, as opposed to more damage, less CD, or an ultimate attack, hook still has advantages and disadvantages that because of how the style and hard damage works, are amplified

who cares you can down a maurice with 3 shotgun swaps if you got hit by his barrage and you are at SS and 80 health?

whip punishes use, not overuse and that makes it taxing to use, you have to calculate the risk every time instead of going for it and knowing the second or third time you use it, you will be punished

Lets compare the practical things you can do with whiplash when at low and high style.

At low style:
1. You can whiplash a heavy enemy and cancel it with a punch to fling yourself towards it, at the cost of a bit of hard damage. (this is the most frequent way I use whiplash)
2. You can use the whiplash at close range to quickly get yourself into point blank range against a large enemy, at the cost of a bit of hard damage. (I find myself doing this against malicious faces and virtues when I am in a spot where I can't jump to them).
3. You can recover from getting knocked far off stage at the cost of a lot of hard damage. puts you in a bad situation, but your only other option is to fall and take damage.
4. You can use grapple points to move at no cost.

At high style:
1. You can do the things mentioned in the low style section more frequently due to having hard damage regenerate faster or not exist. (probably the biggest advantage of being at high style)
2. You can whiplash a heavy enemy far away to get to it quickly (virtues and malicious faces when they are charging up an explosion are safe. You can also do it to something like a cerberus or malicious face, but you will have to dash to avoid projectiles making it more risky and I don't normally do this).
3. If you are not at max health, you can pull a small enemy to you and heal. Not common, but can be useful in a pinch. (only at ultrakill rank).

You get quite a few new options and improvements upon old options when at high style.

1. it technically is a "bug", you could do that already by jumping and it was removed exactly because it gave you the same distance and velocity as grappling but without the hard damage, which defeated the purpouse of the nerf, so i think hakita will also remove punch cancelling in the hotfix patch
2. this is the only situation which i agree the whip is still good at, the problem is, the nerf is directed to long range heals and extreme mobility around the map, this is neither of those, so it should have been affected by a well thought out nerf anyways
3. you can rocket ride now, fairly easy too, and it gives you an even better position that whip and 0 hard damage while also not being dependent of enemies being in the border of map for you to whip to, if you are going to try hard, you may as well try hard to the max and get back with rockets
4. grapple points are in like 3 maps in the whole game, it might make sense in the future, but right now, it is not a thing you can rely on in the least

1.i suppose it is fair
2. so you are using whip with 1 out of the 3 normal big enemies and didn't even mentioned mindflayer and how their non-instakill method to be dealt with was whiplashing and shotgunning it up in the air, or how hook is the best at getting close to sisyphean insurrectionist/cerberus after they blo you away with any of their attacks
3. fair

you don't get quite a few new options, you were stripped of those options and they are giving you them back with a dropper

this is like the beginning of a god of war game, where you have all your upgrades maxed out and something happens and you start from 0, except your equipment is only as good as it was before if you use the spartan fury, the nerf doesn't make the game better or more diverse, it forces you to the type of diverse someone else wants, everything you can do now and say "wow, look at everything i can do", you could do before and decided not to for whatever reason

like i said, i found 0 problems with the style system, but when i first started playing, i shotgun swapped for the win and that made me fell in love with the game, i can't say i would do now