Help With Aiming Frustrations

[Keno]

So, I've tried playing this game with both a gamepad and a hotas (I generally prefer hotas for dogfighting games) but I'm truly struggling to enjoy this experience. I'm not sure if there's something wrong, or if it is a simple control config fix that could solve this problem, but it feels like any mission tends to go like this:

1) Target one enemy fighter
2) Desperately attempt to get that fighter in my sights and flail wildly as it always seems to be behind me no matter how I approach it
3) When it does finally appear in front of me, wildly overshoot as it changes direction and is once again behind me before I can maybe get one blaster shot to connect
4) Spend a large portion of the mission this way before getting frustrated and instead switching to a strategy of just sitting back, repairing myself, and letting my wingmen complete the mission for me because I can barely hit anything at all (at least not without getting shredded to pieces in a unshielded TIE.)

Would some fix like pitch/yaw sensitivity help solve this issue, or is it just a case of borked enemy ship AI getting to perform maneuvers no player can and turn on a dime to constantly stay behind me? I'm honestly confused as to why this feels so much more impossible than something like Wingman, Elite Dangerous, or Ace Combat 7 - and yes, I play those in 1st Person too.

I think part of it is just how... off the controls feel with roll essentially being superfluous to maneuverability and roll+pitch still being my ingrained muscle memory from most dogfighting games. Given the struggle of even getting my hotas set up to work properly with this game (why are roll and yaw mapped to the wrong axes by default?) I'm going to assume there are other contol issues at play here that I'm not considering, and any tips or advice on how to set things up better would be greatly appreciated. Specifically, I'm concerned with the fact that even getting a ship into your field of view is such a chore - I'm going to assume that this wasn't the developers intention.

[BluesyMoo]

Roll and yaw are bound to the correct axes *for this game*. The reason is pitch and yaw are both very powerful axes and you should use them primarily for aiming, not roll and pitch. If you insist on wanting to roll then pitch like in Ace Combat you'll just be frustrated to no end.

That said, pitch rate is slightly higher than yaw rate, so you can still do coupled yaw + roll so that eventually the target is above you and you can pitch up.

[Keno]

Originally posted by MarleyMoo:

Roll and yaw are bound to the correct axes *for this game*. The reason is pitch and yaw are both very powerful axes and you should use them primarily for aiming, not roll and pitch. If you insist on wanting to roll then pitch like in Ace Combat you'll just be frustrated to no end.

That said, pitch rate is slightly higher than yaw rate, so you can still do coupled yaw + roll so that eventually the target is above you and you can pitch up.

I hear what you're saying - that the developers were insisting on their own control scheme and going against the standard dogfighting control scheme - the issue is that this also forces people to completely retrain their brains from years of using a flight stick (Imagine a 3rd person adventure game that swapped which control stick moves the character and which moves the camera for instance) or deal with the fact that flight sticks often have less "give" in the default yaw axis than they do for pitch and roll. Neither winds up feeling particularly fantastic, although the latter seems far preferable to having to relearn how to play every other flight sim game on the market once I put this one down.

And while I appreciate you sticking up for the developer's control scheme of choice, it unfortunately doesn't really answer my question. Even heavily using yaw on my flight stick doesn't change the fact that AI fighters can seemingly flip 180 degrees at full speed the moment I can actually see them and can stay endlessly behind me; that, in conjunction with the issue that the same movement controls that don't seem responsive enough for actually getting them into my field of vision also feel too sluggish to actually line up the crosshairs before they do a flip and disappear again.

I was definitely hoping to hear about potential technical solutions in either the keybind mappings themselves or even ini files that could make an A-wing feel more like I'm piloting... well... an A-wing instead of the oil tanker it feels like now. Things like adjustments to hotas axis sensitivity perhaps. Or even information about how the AI functions uniquely in this game and a different way of approaching dogfighting vs. AI story missions that makes it feel more natural and less like you're just doing dougnnuts in space. Is there anything like that or is "just make yourself worse at every other flight sim by accepting and relearning mismapped axes" the really the only actual solution?

[Twelvefield]

This game is based on the original X-Wing game by LucasArts, and it had the control scheme we have now. Back then, there were no HOTAS's or foot pedal rudders.

In this game, you have to be constantly working the ELS. If you want to maneuver, max E and be very mindful of your speed. A number of players switch roll with yaw in the setup. I don't agree with that, but I'm usually not at the top of the leaderboard.

Speaking of foot pedal rudders, I find they help. A basic controller is more accurate all the way around, though, nature of the beast.

[harsinwhite]

My advice is stick with typical airplane layout with yaw on pedals. Use thrust engine (with light hull on x-wing/tie, whatever on a-wing/IN) and play in hit and run style. Feels much more like an airplane.

[dePARA]

You have 7 hrs in the game, what do you expect? @Keno

I spend multiple hrs to change the controls to my need, watched multiple Videos how to create custom curves for my Hotas.
After really frustrating 1st 20 hrs i am getting better and better now.

Around 50hrs in Dogfight with increasing 3.3 KDR right now.

I am pretty sure its not the games/controls fault that you cant hit something

[harsinwhite]

Learn to do a boost flip turn when about 1000m from the target, then charge at them guns blazing

[Keno]

Originally posted by harsinwhite:

Learn to do a boost flip turn when about 1000m from the target, then charge at them guns blazing

Originally posted by harsinwhite:

My advice is stick with typical airplane layout with yaw on pedals. Use thrust engine (with light hull on x-wing/tie, whatever on a-wing/IN) and play in hit and run style. Feels much more like an airplane.

Originally posted by Twelvefield:

In this game, you have to be constantly working the ELS. If you want to maneuver, max E and be very mindful of your speed. A number of players switch roll with yaw in the setup. I don't agree with that, but I'm usually not at the top of the leaderboard.

Speaking of foot pedal rudders, I find they help. A basic controller is more accurate all the way around, though, nature of the beast.

Thank you for the helpful suggestions - I'll definitely try them and see how they change things. I don't have foot pedals (just a thrustmaster t-flight hotas x) but I should look into some. I'm still curious about sensitivity curves that might make using a hotas more manageable since I grew up playing the original x-wing game on an old joystick and was really hoping for a similar feeling of using one for this, but I guess I'll continue searching around and see if I can find anything concrete.

I'll be honest: I usually go into the steam forums for help as a last resort expecting either a "you just suck lol" or "I found technical things that helped me, but can't be bothered to direct you to them" response. I'm glad that there are people here who want to help rather than gloat. Thank you!

[kalnaren]

Originally posted by Keno:

I hear what you're saying - that the developers were insisting on their own control scheme and going against the standard dogfighting control scheme

On the contrary, this is how space sim games have been controlled for 30 years. The entire X-Wing Series (4 games) controlled like this. So did the entire Wing Commander series (5 games). As did FreeSpace (2 games). And StarLancer. And Privateer (2 games). And Starshatter.

The Elite series is about the only oddball that doesn't use yaw and pitch as their primary axis.

IMO, keep your primary directional axis on the stick. That's yaw and pitch. You can roll all day and it's not going to change which direction your ship is flying in. So put it on a less important axis.

And while I appreciate you sticking up for the developer's control scheme of choice, it unfortunately doesn't really answer my question. Even heavily using yaw on my flight stick doesn't change the fact that AI fighters can seemingly flip 180 degrees at full speed the moment I can actually see them and can stay endlessly behind me; that, in conjunction with the issue that the same movement controls that don't seem responsive enough for actually getting them into my field of vision also feel too sluggish to actually line up the crosshairs before they do a flip and disappear again.

So the issue you're describing here is one that actually annoys the heck out of me as well -ships in this game are incredibly slow to respond to control inputs and the flight model is exceptionally floaty. This, unfortunetly, leads to a ton of over-controlling.

I'm not sure if it was done this way to play better on a controller (I haven't tried), but on a high resolution stick it's infuriating.

The bad news is the only real way to fix it is just practice, practice, and more practice. Get good at deflection shooting and ranged shots.

I was definitely hoping to hear about potential technical solutions in either the keybind mappings themselves or even ini files that could make an A-wing feel more like I'm piloting... well... an A-wing instead of the oil tanker it feels like now. Things like adjustments to hotas axis sensitivity perhaps.

Make sure you have zero deadzone and try reducing the sensitivity to 50% or so. The downside to this is that it's going to necessitate large stick deflections, which comes with its own set of issues, but I found with higher sensitivity settings (especially on a high resolution stick) the over-correcting problems were exasperated.

[Keno]

Originally posted by kalnaren:

On the contrary, this is how space sim games have been controlled for 30 years. The entire X-Wing Series (4 games) controlled like this. So did the entire Wing Commander series (5 games). As did FreeSpace (2 games). And StarLancer. And Privateer (2 games). And Starshatter.

The Elite series is about the only oddball that doesn't use yaw and pitch as their primary axis.

That's, honestly something I never recognized. I do vaguely remember the old x-wing and tie-fighter games controlling like that, but there was a long period in-between where I didn't have a stick when I played FreeSpace 2. And wow - I haven't thought about Wing Commander in... eons. Wing Commander 3 was one of the first games I ever owned as a kid. That's really good to know. ED has sort of been my standard for space flight games. Although now I'm trying to think back on what the X series and Freelancer did (though I know the X series places far less emphasis on the fighting than it does its free-market simulator) because I know I played them with a stick. It's possible I simply forgot and ED just made a massive impression on me. Either way, I appreciate the information!

Originally posted by kalnaren:

So the issue you're describing here is one that actually annoys the heck out of me as well -ships in this game are incredibly slow to respond to control inputs and the flight model is exceptionally floaty. This, unfortunetly, leads to a ton of over-controlling.

I'm not sure if it was done this way to play better on a controller (I haven't tried), but on a high resolution stick it's infuriating.

The bad news is the only real way to fix it is just practice, practice, and more practice. Get good at deflection shooting and ranged shots.

Make sure you have zero deadzone and try reducing the sensitivity to 50% or so. The downside to this is that it's going to necessitate large stick deflections, which comes with its own set of issues, but I found with higher sensitivity settings (especially on a high resolution stick) the over-correcting problems were exasperated.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm glad to know I'm not crazy in feeling something was massively off. I didn't quite know how to describe it - hence the incredibly long initial post. I'll try out those settings and see how it feels.

[ebe-a51]

Youre not the only person to find aiming and accuracy a problem.
I typed out this for another community member - may help you mate.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1222730/discussions/0/2972902451420640472/

[kalnaren]

Originally posted by Keno:

That's, honestly something I never recognized. I do vaguely remember the old x-wing and tie-fighter games controlling like that, but there was a long period in-between where I didn't have a stick when I played FreeSpace 2. And wow - I haven't thought about Wing Commander in... eons. Wing Commander 3 was one of the first games I ever owned as a kid. That's really good to know. ED has sort of been my standard for space flight games. Although now I'm trying to think back on what the X series and Freelancer did (though I know the X series places far less emphasis on the fighting than it does its free-market simulator) because I know I played them with a stick. It's possible I simply forgot and ED just made a massive impression on me. Either way, I appreciate the information!

Freelancer used mouse-flight, and X3/X4 use basic yaw/pitch control like most space sims. X4 is a little more basic yet again because it has roll auto-leveling. I really should go back to playing that...

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm glad to know I'm not crazy in feeling something was massively off. I didn't quite know how to describe it - hence the incredibly long initial post. I'll try out those settings and see how it feels.

Yea, you're not alone.

[falkenbbs]

Originally posted by MarleyMoo:

Roll and yaw are bound to the correct axes *for this game*. The reason is pitch and yaw are both very powerful axes and you should use them primarily for aiming, not roll and pitch. If you insist on wanting to roll then pitch like in Ace Combat you'll just be frustrated to no end.

That said, pitch rate is slightly higher than yaw rate, so you can still do coupled yaw + roll so that eventually the target is above you and you can pitch up.

I just can't get used to it. I play games like DCS World and I just gave up on this game, I don't want to ruin the way DCS feels becaues I adapt to this weird control scheme. I couldn't stand the control. I haven't tried it since it came out. So flying these ships is not like a plane that rotates on it's own axis and banks to turn? Is it like those old crappy radio shack cars that would run into a wall and a piston would pop out the bottom to rotate the vehicle so it could continue moving forward? I.E. Are you supposed to fly the planes in this game with the ships rotating on the z axis?! That just can't be right.

[falkenbbs]

Originally posted by dePARA:

You have 7 hrs in the game, what do you expect? @Keno

I spend multiple hrs to change the controls to my need, watched multiple Videos how to create custom curves for my Hotas.
After really frustrating 1st 20 hrs i am getting better and better now.

Around 50hrs in Dogfight with increasing 3.3 KDR right now.

I am pretty sure its not the games/controls fault that you cant hit something

Multiple hours to change controls? Watch many videos? First 20 hours of frustration? You don't see the problem with this? Some people won't put up with that nonsense. To me this was an inexpensive game that looked interesting. The controls were terrible from the start, I got sick of it in 30 minutes, and setting up the Hotas was a daunting task. There were no pre-configured INI's I could download to make that task bearable like there are for most of the flight sims that are out there. I didn't want to waste my steam time in game setting up controls and eat up my entire 2 hour return window without actually giving the game a fair shot, so I put it aside and said to myself I'd come back to it. Forgot about it and the return window ran out. Steam won this battle... It was my fault for not coming back in time. I ended up loading DCS back up and found new appreciation for excellent controls with a hotas the way it was meant to be played.

I'll give this another shot since I'm stuck with it now, but my first impression was terrible and that was 100% because of the controls.

[harsinwhite]

With regard to how pitch, roll, and yaw are bound in this game -

I’ll just point out that when you yaw, the on screen animation shows you activating your pedal.

For me personally though, I just found it incredibly hard to try to retrain my brain to have yaw on the stick, and I don’t want to make it more difficult when going back to planes/helicopters. Also I just find it more immersive using normal plane configuration.

[kalnaren]

Well, as far as space sims are concerned it makes a lot more sense if you have the mindset of primary flight controls on the stick. As in "stick left, go left". That works for both aircraft and space sims. In aircraft roll and pitch are your primary directional axis. In space sims it's yaw and pitch. Same idea -move the stick left, you go left. It really doesn't take much time to get used to, and swapping from space sims to flight sims (bounded properly like a plane) isn't a big deal, IMO.

Binding the axis in this game is the easy part of HOTAS binding (provided you figure out the stupid 4 device limit...). The hard part is binding the dumb "combo" buttons and radial target menus that have no business being in a sim. But that's what we get from a game designed for a console controller that had HOTAS support added as an afterthought.