Soooo... still no Momo nerf?

[turbo]

Snooooreeeee... mimimimim... Sorry fell asleep trying to play as Momo but the game played itself for me so i guess i'lll catch up on some zzz

[Necro-Drake]

931numbers님이 먼저 게시:

If you paid extra to play this specific hero, playing a different hero defeats the entire point of buying the DLC.

Because the alternative is asking for a refund, taking back money you gave to the devs.

I fail how to see how that is relevant. I also bought the DLC and haven't even touched the character yet. Many others have bought the DLC and are either perfectly fine with the character or having a blast playing with them. Of course not everyone who buys the DLC is going to like playing the character, but thats the risk you take in spending money on a game like this. You can't simply expect all content to be liked by everyone because everyone is different, but the content is the same.

Your arguement amounts to a singular experience being higher than that of others based on... what exactly? We've all spent money and we've all met with disappointment or even just found that a game or content wasn't for us after the fact. That doesn't mean that the game/content is necessarily bad and needs to be changed, though it could be, it could mean that it simply wasn't for you.

To think that EVERYTHING has to cater to the individual is an entitled way to think.

[Losk Osmanthus 路渐秋凉]

Necro-Drake님이 먼저 게시:

931numbers님이 먼저 게시:

If you paid extra to play this specific hero, playing a different hero defeats the entire point of buying the DLC.

Because the alternative is asking for a refund, taking back money you gave to the devs.

I fail how to see how that is relevant.

He said that statement was specifically talking about OP. Even if it is not generally applicable, but he stood correctly until OP says otherwise.

[Necro-Drake]

Losk Osmanthus 路渐秋凉님이 먼저 게시:

Necro-Drake님이 먼저 게시:

I fail how to see how that is relevant.

He said that statement was specifically talking about OP. Even if it is not generally applicable, but he stood correctly until OP says otherwise.

I am legit confused what you mean by this?

What we are talking about is one person"s enjoyment of the DLC as opposed to others, and 931 brings up money that they spent on the game. I'm assuming that they mean to say that because they spent money on it, that they have a right to enjoy the product and it should be changed to reflect their own personal enjoyment (otherwise, why spend money on it in the first place), but they fail to acknowledge the fact that any change made to the product itself would have a possible effect on others enjoyment. The game and the DLC don't exist in a vacuum and can't be reliant on just one persons opinions, as the community as a whole play the game.

[931numbers]

Necro-Drake님이 먼저 게시:

I am legit confused what you mean by this?

What we are talking about is one person"s enjoyment of the DLC as opposed to others, and 931 brings up money that they spent on the game. I'm assuming that they mean to say that because they spent money on it, that they have a right to enjoy the product and it should be changed to reflect their own personal enjoyment (otherwise, why spend money on it in the first place), but they fail to acknowledge the fact that any change made to the product itself would have a possible effect on others enjoyment. The game and the DLC don't exist in a vacuum and can't be reliant on just one persons opinions, as the community as a whole play the game.

OP isn't having fun and wanted a Momo nerf. Someone asks "why would they nerf anyone?" to which I answer it would allow OP to have fun.

Then someone else says to just play another hero, which I point out how stupid it is if you paid extra just to not use what you paid for.

These were said to show what OP might be thinking when they posted to begin with, and to point out why they might want this when people couldn't understand. I never said their own enjoyment was superior to others enjoyment, and didn't say their opinion should be able to change the product they bought.

That being said, Momo definitely does still deserve a nerf. But for a variety of other reasons and not just because someone wants it.

[Necro-Drake]

931numbers님이 먼저 게시:

OP isn't having fun and wanted a Momo nerf. Someone asks "why would they nerf anyone?" to which I answer it would allow OP to have fun.

Then someone else says to just play another hero, which I point out how stupid it is if you paid extra just to not use what you paid for.

These were said to show what OP might be thinking when they posted to begin with, and to point out why they might want this when people couldn't understand. I never said their own enjoyment was superior to others enjoyment, and didn't say their opinion should be able to change the product they bought.

The only reason you've given so far as to why it should be nerfed is reliant on the fact that they paid for it and, because of such, that they should be able to enjoy it. Regardless of any other reason, which you haven't communicated, this is what you have presented. I just pointed out why that reasoning is flawed and the conclusion that could be drawn from what you said (all of which is being presented as a selfish, entitled viewpoint because if fails to consider others). Ie. Just because you've paid for something, doesn't automatically mean that thing should be catered to you specifically (and in this case, if it is catered to you it changes everyone elses experience).

Sorry if that feels like puting words in your mouth, my bad, no sarcasm, but what other conclusion are we supposed to draw from that?

931numbers님이 먼저 게시:

That being said, Momo definitely does still deserve a nerf. But for a variety of other reasons and not just because someone wants it.

Can you provide those reasons?

So far my arguements against point to other's enjoyment/opinion, it being a non competitive pve game, and there being a lot of other content and challenge to be had besides.

Of course you can specify outside of these reasons, but thats where I would point to currently against a nerf.

[Me<#yct>lan<size=Tropie>]

The balance in this game is a complete mess right now. When you look at multiplayer, it gets even worse, three times harder to balance, at least. Fixing it feels impossible for the devs at this point, I’d say. All they seem able to do is keep pushing out updates with more weapons, scrolls, heroes and some tweak. Playing solo and having fun is great. But when that fun in multiplayer comes at the cost of ruining the experience for others, that’s a No-No. I only expect nerfs in multiplayer not in solo mode. But I keep imagining heroes having two versions of themselves.

[Liath Anam]

I have made Reincarnation 5 test runs with nothing but Overconsumption as a starting blessing + one character exclusive blessing at the first mushroom guy. Outside of that I did not use any scrolls at all running purely on ascensions and guns.

Out of the 3 runs I did Momo performed the worst, sure his passive AoE has decent damage and I killed Lu Wu with just that but it quickly got beaten by scaling the moment I got into Anxi Desert where shields and armor are more plentifull.

The other two runs made with Qing Yan and Li were much easier and they did far more damage overall running on the same rules as Momo - just their pure character kit with extra starting sauce.

I think the problem with Momo is that if you play like you normally would you'll end up with a god build like all other characters do but on top of that you have a passive source of damage that can be just behind or on par with elemental nova in some cases and you have it since the beginning on every run, that creates the illusion that he's strong because you deal extra damage without extra input.

So no Momo doesn't need a nerf, he needs a complete change/removal/replacement of his passive AoE and also it's range extension from one ascension

[nul]

Necro-Drake님이 먼저 게시:

So far my arguements against point to - it being a non competitive pve game-

This is a dumb argument and will always be.
If things don't need to be balanced because it's a pve game, then, would you be opposed to everyone getting a buff? What if instead of all this waffling about "x character can only be killed by elemental damage" or "y character can only be killed if their permanent teammate also gets killed" or "z character can only be killed during short windows where they can take damage at all"... That we just made every character unkillable? Or instead of all this stupidly high base damage on top of having several ways of scaling damage, some of it free, why not just make enemies die if you hit them with anything but a frenzied shark?
It's a pve game, so it doesn't need to be balanced to be challenging on the highest difficulty, right?

[Abandon Reason]

931numbers님이 먼저 게시:

TABula Rasa님이 먼저 게시:

why would they nerf anyone. it's not a PVP game. stop asking for nerfs

So they can have fun playing Momo. As it turns out, playing an effortless hero can be pretty boring.

If you paid extra for a DLC only to find out the things you paid for are boring to use, you'd want it to change to be more fun too.

Then make your own challenge? Do you need the game to do everything for you? Zoomers...

[931numbers]

Necro-Drake님이 먼저 게시:

The only reason you've given so far as to why it should be nerfed is reliant on the fact that they paid for it and, because of such, that they should be able to enjoy it. Regardless of any other reason, which you haven't communicated, this is what you have presented. I just pointed out why that reasoning is flawed and the conclusion that could be drawn from what you said (all of which is being presented as a selfish, entitled viewpoint because if fails to consider others). Ie. Just because you've paid for something, doesn't automatically mean that thing should be catered to you specifically (and in this case, if it is catered to you it changes everyone elses experience).

Sorry if that feels like puting words in your mouth, my bad, no sarcasm, but what other conclusion are we supposed to draw from that?

Given that what I said was creating understanding and not making an argument, which you've now been told twice by 2 different people but still haven't realized yet, this entire counter-argument has nowhere to go because there was never an argument to counter.

Attempts to continue this will fall on deaf ears.

Necro-Drake님이 먼저 게시:

Can you provide those reasons?

So far my arguements against point to other's enjoyment/opinion, it being a non competitive pve game, and there being a lot of other content and challenge to be had besides.

Of course you can specify outside of these reasons, but thats where I would point to currently against a nerf.

Keep in mind this is separate from OP's post and my points about it, being only an answer to your question. Do not even try conflating this list together with what I said earlier as one big argument, because it isn't.

• Overtuned ascensions. Most other DLC heroes also have this. Includes things such as Surge Ink's up to +600% base damage on both a damage-heavy skill and passive (non-DLC is usually up to +300%, only being higher for utility skills such as Energy Orb or Leap). Colorful Black is up to +160% damage, multiplicative, with extras. Domain Expansion is up to +150% damage, multiplicative, with extras. Geometry Art permanently gives a bonus equivalent to non-permanent or situational bonuses on other heroes. Then you can double (or triple!) the bonuses making it even more absurd. Breathing Rhythm permanently gives Ink Form more speed, shield regen, ink regen and any other blank domain bonuses, removing the need to lay blank domain down strategically, AND improves your ink regen... You'd be hard-pressed finding similarly high numbers with extras on non-DLC heroes.

• Free passive effects. Lyn also has this. So why does Momo get weapon bonuses with Ink Shade, and why can he do damage just by being near enemies with Ink Domain, for free? Any weapon or ink-based skill build gets a head start for no reason. If it was an unlockable hero talent or only applied during his skills it would be understandable, but it isn't.

• DLC also adds a weapon designed to remove his downsides. His big downside when in Ink Form was supposed to be he can't use weapons, preventing you from double-dipping on damage while keeping your incredible defensive bonuses. Conveniently, the very same DLC added the powerful Starfly which completely ignores this downside. You might argue that Starfly doesn't count because it's not about Momo, which would have merit if they were added at different times, but it's a little too convenient that they work so well together and come from the same DLC. Starfly is even in Momo's background art, making the overtuned synergy even more obvious.

• Extreme movement speed from the start. When playing solo this doesn't really mean much. But when playing Multiplayer is when things get out of hand. Up to +150% movement speed right from the start (13.75 speed), compared to other heroes like Tao (up to +50%, for 7.8 speed) or Lei Luo (up to +30%, for 7.8 speed) lets Momo get ahead of everyone else very, very easily. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if his damage sucked or he died easily, but the previous 3 points shows his damage can be perfectly fine with letting him kill everything, and Ink Form giving him massive damage reduction and literal death immunity covers any mistakes he could make by being so reckless. He's a hero who is basically designed to kill every enemy before your teammates can catch up, ruining the game for them since they don't get to play.

There are a few other things such as his skills being powerful (death immunity guaranteed!) or having overtuned blessings (like most blessings are), but I figured I'd already explained enough.

"Now what's wrong with just being powerful?" you might ask. Well power is addictive, and when you have lots of it, losing it by using something weaker might make it feel unfun in comparison. Just look at weapons for example and consider how often you might use something like Laser Gloves, Frenzied Shark or Glimmering for fun over others like Illusion, Deafening Mortar and Starfly because they're powerful, letting you win easier, which is more fun. Why use the former when you can use the more fun latter?

Then you run the risk of restricting your options and just not using half the game's variety because it sucks in comparison. If it was more balanced (such as with nerfs. No, at this point buffs come with their own series of endlessly scaling problems), you'd probably be more willing to enjoy a bigger variety of stuff.

[Necro-Drake]

nul님이 먼저 게시:

Necro-Drake님이 먼저 게시:

So far my arguements against point to - it being a non competitive pve game-

This is a dumb argument and will always be.
If things don't need to be balanced because it's a pve game, then, would you be opposed to everyone getting a buff? What if instead of all this waffling about "x character can only be killed by elemental damage" or "y character can only be killed if their permanent teammate also gets killed" or "z character can only be killed during short windows where they can take damage at all"... That we just made every character unkillable? Or instead of all this stupidly high base damage on top of having several ways of scaling damage, some of it free, why not just make enemies die if you hit them with anything but a frenzied shark?
It's a pve game, so it doesn't need to be balanced to be challenging on the highest difficulty, right?

That isn't what we are arguing here and I find it interesting that you would make such an extreme example. Love the attempt at a straw man though.

Besides ignoring the main point of this discussion, the consideration on how alterations effect the enjoyment of the overall player base and not just the individual, nowhere was it said that the game had to be easy or that I specifically wanted it easy, just that everyone has a different experience. Where one might think something is hard, another might think it easy, where one might enjoy the current difficulty, another might want more or less challenge. Balance is important, but I am not an advocate for "balance" just because. There has to be a good reason behind it and other avenues might be a good idea to explore first.

Look at Helldivers 2 and the train wreck that they invoked when they did general and specific nerfs instead of thinking of others solutions first. They pissed off a very large portion of the player base, with many feeling like they were being punished for getting the good weapons and stratagems. Look at what the player base did and how the devs had to react in order to fix their general screw up.

Also, I finally tried Momo recently and let me tell you... they really aren't a "pick to win" kind of character. You actually have to know how to use them and I definitely don't. Looking over their playstyle, after playing with their kit for awhile, I've come to the conclusion that the character isn't for me. Lyn is a lot more my speed, and tends to room clear better in my opinion... but thats fine. I don't need to like every character, and I definitely don't feel like Momo is better or worse, just different.

[Necro-Drake]

931numbers님이 먼저 게시:

Given that what I said was creating understanding and not making an argument, which you've now been told twice by 2 different people but still haven't realized yet, this entire counter-argument has nowhere to go because there was never an argument to counter.

Attempts to continue this will fall on deaf ears.

Who, because I see no one in this posts history that told me otherwise... except... are you talking about Losk? They never said anything like that.

Also, no argument? Could have fooled me. You can't argue something and then say that its not an argument because it didn't go the way you wanted it. Thats some weird pre-school "but nuh-uh," kind of logic.

Also, fair. This will probably be the last time I post here anyway, so I'll respect your last statement.

931numbers님이 먼저 게시:

Keep in mind this is separate from OP's post and my points about it, being only an answer to your question. Do not even try conflating this list together with what I said earlier as one big argument, because it isn't.

• Overtuned ascensions. Most other DLC heroes also have this. Includes things such as Surge Ink's up to +600% base damage on both a damage-heavy skill and passive (non-DLC is usually up to +300%, only being higher for utility skills such as Energy Orb or Leap). Colorful Black is up to +160% damage, multiplicative, with extras. Domain Expansion is up to +150% damage, multiplicative, with extras. Geometry Art permanently gives a bonus equivalent to non-permanent or situational bonuses on other heroes. Then you can double (or triple!) the bonuses making it even more absurd. Breathing Rhythm permanently gives Ink Form more speed, shield regen, ink regen and any other blank domain bonuses, removing the need to lay blank domain down strategically, AND improves your ink regen... You'd be hard-pressed finding similarly high numbers with extras on non-DLC heroes.

• Free passive effects. Lyn also has this. So why does Momo get weapon bonuses with Ink Shade, and why can he do damage just by being near enemies with Ink Domain, for free? Any weapon or ink-based skill build gets a head start for no reason. If it was an unlockable hero talent or only applied during his skills it would be understandable, but it isn't.

• DLC also adds a weapon designed to remove his downsides. His big downside when in Ink Form was supposed to be he can't use weapons, preventing you from double-dipping on damage while keeping your incredible defensive bonuses. Conveniently, the very same DLC added the powerful Starfly which completely ignores this downside. You might argue that Starfly doesn't count because it's not about Momo, which would have merit if they were added at different times, but it's a little too convenient that they work so well together and come from the same DLC. Starfly is even in Momo's background art, making the overtuned synergy even more obvious.

• Extreme movement speed from the start. When playing solo this doesn't really mean much. But when playing Multiplayer is when things get out of hand. Up to +150% movement speed right from the start (13.75 speed), compared to other heroes like Tao (up to +50%, for 7.8 speed) or Lei Luo (up to +30%, for 7.8 speed) lets Momo get ahead of everyone else very, very easily. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if his damage sucked or he died easily, but the previous 3 points shows his damage can be perfectly fine with letting him kill everything, and Ink Form giving him massive damage reduction and literal death immunity covers any mistakes he could make by being so reckless. He's a hero who is basically designed to kill every enemy before your teammates can catch up, ruining the game for them since they don't get to play.

There are a few other things such as his skills being powerful (death immunity guaranteed!) or having overtuned blessings (like most blessings are), but I figured I'd already explained enough.

Now this is exactly what I'm talking about. Actual substance to explain your point and why this can be a problem in a multiplayer pve setting, not just because the one guy doesn't like it for reasons.

I would think that a lot of that is power creep in the direction of the DLC characters in general, ie. get what you paid for, and maybe this is a sign that the original characters need some love in that direction (Passives and slightly better ascensions). As to him being the best out of the DLC characters (allegedly becoming the worst teammate because of it) I'm not too sure that is 100% the case, but I'll relent to someone with more experience with him. Not entirely sure how you'd "fix" the character without a complete overhaul (ie. making him a different character entirely) or ruining his kit, but that's not for me to speculate. Pretty sure it will piss people off regardless.

[Losk Osmanthus 路渐秋凉]

People think of arguments being a bad thing these days. tsk tsk tsk.

[nul]

Abandon Reason님이 먼저 게시:

931numbers님이 먼저 게시:

So they can have fun playing Momo. As it turns out, playing an effortless hero can be pretty boring.

If you paid extra for a DLC only to find out the things you paid for are boring to use, you'd want it to change to be more fun too.

Then make your own challenge? Do you need the game to do everything for you? Zoomers...

Self-imposed challenges are not the same as the game returning to the balance it once had.
Some of the spiritual blessings used to be perfectly fine to use, now you can't take them at all without completely removing all the challenge.
Some of the geminis used to be perfectly fine to use, now spores has gone from the weakest one to the most powerful one.

Self imposed challenges remove features from the game, and usually puts you in a worse position than you were in before things got buffed. And missing out on some of the fun discovery/combinations of things that were once just something good rather than something that makes you win the game.

Necro-Drake님이 먼저 게시:

nul님이 먼저 게시:

This is a dumb argument and will always be.
If things don't need to be balanced because it's a pve game, then, would you be opposed to everyone getting a buff? What if instead of all this waffling about "x character can only be killed by elemental damage" or "y character can only be killed if their permanent teammate also gets killed" or "z character can only be killed during short windows where they can take damage at all"... That we just made every character unkillable? Or instead of all this stupidly high base damage on top of having several ways of scaling damage, some of it free, why not just make enemies die if you hit them with anything but a frenzied shark?
It's a pve game, so it doesn't need to be balanced to be challenging on the highest difficulty, right?

That isn't what we are arguing here and I find it interesting that you would make such an extreme example. Love the attempt at a straw man though.

Besides ignoring the main point of this discussion, the consideration on how alterations effect the enjoyment of the overall player base and not just the individual, nowhere was it said that the game had to be easy or that I specifically wanted it easy, just that everyone has a different experience. Where one might think something is hard, another might think it easy, where one might enjoy the current difficulty, another might want more or less challenge. Balance is important, but I am not an advocate for "balance" just because. There has to be a good reason behind it and other avenues might be a good idea to explore first.

Look at Helldivers 2 and the train wreck that they invoked when they did general and specific nerfs instead of thinking of others solutions first. They pissed off a very large portion of the player base, with many feeling like they were being punished for getting the good weapons and stratagems. Look at what the player base did and how the devs had to react in order to fix their general screw up.

Also, I finally tried Momo recently and let me tell you... they really aren't a "pick to win" kind of character. You actually have to know how to use them and I definitely don't. Looking over their playstyle, after playing with their kit for awhile, I've come to the conclusion that the character isn't for me. Lyn is a lot more my speed, and tends to room clear better in my opinion... but thats fine. I don't need to like every character, and I definitely don't feel like Momo is better or worse, just different.

Yes, it was an extreme example, but it was an attack on the very specific "balance isn't needed because it's pve" argument. In which was never defended here afterwards. So I think I've made my point there.

And yes, I was one of those people who enjoyed the difficulty. Several years ago. But people kept complaining the game was too hard until they repeatedly buffed everything. So much for "not needing balance in a pve game". Turns out that only applies when you want things nerfed. The game experience has changed from what I had originally purchased, and from my perspective, it's changed negatively.

As for Helldivers 2, never played it. But I can understand that the community is much softer than the one that played the first game. And that community was soft too. (They literally could not play a snow map without the DLC equipment for being able to move at normal speed in snow) I'm very strongly aware that Helldivers is populated with people with skill issue. Yes, the developers were forced to change their own work and art because community could not cope with the fact that they couldn't optimize the challenge out of the game by just using every piece of metaslave gear they could find.

As for the comments on Momo in specific, I cannot comment. I have not purchased the newest DLC, nor have I played with anyone that did. But I think this might just be you still being relatively new to the game. There's been many veterans of the game around here saying that they are in fact just busted and not just different. The bar for how broken a hero is just keeps getting raised every DLC.

The fact that the commonly proposed 'solution' to Momo's power level is to buff all of the other heroes, despite the fact that some of these heroes were already considered overpowered before any DLC even dropped, is pretty amusing. They just feel so much weaker compared to what we have now.


Currently, the only difference in difficulty levels is that R1 is easy and R9 is still easy but you might accidentally surprise die if you're not playing one of the three or four immortal heroes. R7 used to be the most challenging difficulty but at some point, Nightmare actually became harder because of all the buffs and additions that are reincarnation specific. Nightmare might still be the hardest if you disable seasonal content.

Edit: And as an attempt to make a point. I actually tried R1 with 0 talents (thanks to the new talent reset). It felt a lot easier than Normal with 0 talents. The only reason I died is because I forgot there was a new desert. And I didn't know what the big guy does. Turns out he just kills you if you're too close to him.

[deothor]

Momo and the ice goat character are just so grossly overperforming.... All the while bunny is a joke unless you go with very specific build and get lucky with specific scrolls.