Li May be Too Powerful

[Command Line Vulpine]

I'm not usually one of the people that complains when the player can be too overpowered - it's like reminding the teacher that you had homework last night.

But consistently, using Li I was doing 2X the amount of damage my friends were, and then 4X as much as them once I started to figure out what was doing it. Then finally we had a game where I did 177 million damage, while they only did 9 and 6 million each. I've had to self ban myself from the character because they weren't having fun.

The Culprits:
- "Flare Calling" Ascension - Summons Blazing Meteors on the enemy when you shoot them with a gun. At level 3 it spawns 2 meteors with a chance to spawn Spiritual Flame.

- Any Ascension that boosts Blazing Meteor or Spirtual Flame's damage "Spiritual Meteor" "Accurate Crush" "Conflagration""Firefox Blessing" "Energetic Spirit"

- "Cloud Weaver" Weapon - Homes on enemies, very high range, damage procs fast, has a big clip size, reloads fast, enemies can't dodge it, can use abilities while it's out doing damage, can focus on dodging in bullet hell situations while it still does damage.

tl;dr I wanna play the fox but she's so strong my friends won't let me :(

ps: Cloud weaver alone is the biggest problem, I've still done 3-4X damage even when I play other characters if I get one. Doesn't even matter what inscriptions are on it.

[Rugged Lemmings]

Цитата допису Kudegra:

It's poorly tuned numbers making her cap out damage faster then anyone else, it becomes un-interactive to co-op when someone can walk into one room remove any threat from the game and move to the next with just a couple of short cooldowns.

Again I must point out that this is something not unique to Li. Assuming that both characters get blessed by RNG with everything they want in terms of scrolls and ascensions the Birb's kick build will clear a room faster than Li's fireball build. Don't have a basis for comparison for her meteor build yet, but I've confirmed this with a few runs now with a buddy. We even swapped so that I'd play the Birb for a couple runs and he'd play the Fox and vice-versa. The result from my "experiments" were pretty clear: Li's nuclear damage numbers mean nothing if she doesn't have targets to hit.

[The Wrinkled Dinkler]

177 million isn't even that high. any character can get damage that high.

[Jacobella]

On one hand I think we can all agree Cloud Weaver is OP

On the other we all wanted to use Yondu's Yaka Arrow from Guardians of the Galaxy

So this is really our own fault

[Kudegra]

Цитата допису Rugged Lemmings:

Li's nuclear damage numbers mean nothing if she doesn't have targets to hit.

Pre-cast E into any room and you'll have cleared it before bird can reach anywhere, meteor isn't even that strong compared to a massive line aoe with infinite pierce, raging inferno is effortless to keep up letting you hold a 450% bonus before any ascension or scrolls come into play,

Get Conflag and you have another 450% with +100% at the end. Birds strong but he doesnt get 450% bonus after 2 stages and his range isn't basically the length of every room. Li can make do with 1 maxed ascension and 1 spirit blessing.

[Rugged Lemmings]

Цитата допису Kudegra:

Цитата допису Rugged Lemmings:

Li's nuclear damage numbers mean nothing if she doesn't have targets to hit.

Pre-cast E into any room and you'll have cleared it before bird can reach anywhere, meteor isn't even that strong compared to a massive line aoe with infinite pierce, raging inferno is effortless to keep up letting you hold a 450% bonus before any ascension or scrolls come into play,

Get Conflag and you have another 450% with +100% at the end. Birds strong but he doesnt get 450% bonus after 2 stages and his range isn't basically the length of every room. Li can make do with 1 maxed ascension and 1 spirit blessing.

I don't know what kind of bowling alley formations the enemies spawn in for your runs, but for me the "load up a fireball for the next room and launch it when they spawn" stops clearing entire rooms after Act 1 when the areas are a lot more open. Sure, you can take out a fair chunk of them, but then you have to wait for at least 2 bars of energy to fill plus a moment or two to channel up your next fireball. Meanwhile the birb's had enough time to spam kick 5 times thanks to resets.

Later in the game once you get more energy bars and/or Endless Wildfires it becomes a bit more manageable since you can actually start spamming full power fireballs, but now you're dealing with the birb's end-game damage as well as his speed.

I'll admit that the one thing I haven't tried is a "melee fireball" build where you're running in to close range to negate the slow travel time of the fireball (which in turn would negate the travel distance bonus of one of her ascensions, I forget which) but I honestly don't see that working out well for her.

[Sprawl]

Tao, Lei Lou, and Ao Bai standing in the corner hoping you don't notice them lol.

[Command Line Vulpine]

Цитата допису The Wrinkled Dinkler:

177 million isn't even that high. any character can get damage that high.

This was a completed Elite run. So not really, between the 3 of us there's no HP left to damage, I did like 90% of the damage. Just scale up the damage numbers accordingly to imagine a higher difficulty, the factor of how much better I did would still apply.

[Raven D'Ropa]

Цитата допису Command Line Vulpine:

Цитата допису The Wrinkled Dinkler:

177 million isn't even that high. any character can get damage that high.

This was a completed Elite run. So not really, between the 3 of us there's no HP left to damage, I did like 90% of the damage. Just scale up the damage numbers accordingly to imagine a higher difficulty, the factor of how much better I did would still apply.

Not true at all with the scaling, Reincarnation 4+ I found the gap between my damage and others became very narrow very quickly. Sure, I usually still did more than them, sometimes a lot more, but most of that time was me getting a perfect set up, with their help on the scrolls. I've also had super terrible runs where I can't do more than other characters because I can't get the scrolls to boost skill damage and I'm left as a squishy character with a gun and weak skills (even with ascensions), making it so that I'm lagging far behind in damage until the very end of the game. I will agree with others that she can be built up easily, and there are definitely areas where she feels ridiculously strong, however, I've watched the dog, tiger, and monkey do far better for 80% of the round while I struggled to get the right items and ascensions. A lot of the game is luck, knowing what items you have and need, and being as prepared as possible.

Also, if cloud weaver makes you do 3-4x the damage, just don't use it to help lessen the amount you're doing when playing with friends. Otherwise, maybe they need some additional practice in the game or some help with scrolls during rounds so they can do more damage.

[Dreams of Fury]

Honestly most of my runs with a handful of the cast go either crap, meh, or amazing, but still go semi far even on the low end, fox on the other hand is either "this freaking sucks" to falling on the floor before i finish the second act or "god tier" easy mode win with nothing in between, her reliance on RNG seems to be her downfall, havent had a chance to play with the friends yet but I'll re-evaluate my opinion after playing with them a bit this weekend.

[Minterfresh]

If you stop casting it for a bit you'll notice that your teammates do more damage than you since you're intelligent and have given them your scrolls that benefit weapon damage.

The fox's strength is the skill ceiling of being able to charge fireballs just enough for lethal damage with the burn dot, saving enough meter to keep regaining it, or charging higher to take out priority targets with hit damage.

[DeMasked]

Li is definitely quite strong and I rather easily got through Elite / Nightmare with her. I also just had a run with Tao using her sword blades going through Elite that became super easy just spamming her ability and the rapid fire of the injector gun. End boss died right after the shield animation - think I killed it faster then Li.

[Toxi The Vagrant]

Honestly, the big thing is the damage scoring mechanism counting overkill damage. There's characters with a much higher burst dps potential than Li overall, but they don't do it all in the one funny overkill six plus digit number, so their score looks a lot worse than hers does, even when they do more (lei luo being able to clear 25 meter radius zones in single button presses comes to mind)

I don't think the damage number should be a viable metric to how much is getting contributed to the party, at least until overkill isn't counted anymore.

[MrLuckless]

I actually really like the fox, she's plenty powerful and building for her is pretty intuitive. Bank on meteors or chain fire foxes. EASY! If she has a weakness I'd say it's related to her durability, which if I don't get decent scrolls, she crumbles like a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ crouton. The flame that burns brightest and all that.

[DJDiceZ]

She's strong, but damage stat is a useless factor to account for in balance. Especially since the game includes overkill damage. If we were basing ourself on damage stat alone, then thunder kitty would be far, far more OP.

Imagine if enemies had 100K HP. If you do 1M damage to one enemy every 10 seconds, and 100k damage to one enemy every 5 seconds, the first player would do 12M after playing for 2 minutes, and the second player would do 2.4M, yet they'd be killing things 10 times faster.

Does she deserve a nerf? Perhaps, though i doubt anything more than some light nerfs on a few things are necessary.

A huge part of what makes her powerful is the AOE potential of her kit. Her meteor spam spiritual blessing could get toned down, as could her additional meteor spawn ascensions. Her spiritual flame could do slight decreased damage everytime it pierces through enemies (5~10%). And her fire based buffs could be reduced a bit because not only are they strong, they also reduce her flexibility and force her into firey playstyles by default.

And cloud weaver indeed feels OP, it has a lot of damage, it's easy to crit with, and you can cast abilities while using it (!!).


She also might be straight up bugged: I seem to get energy from kills even without using any fire source or having them burn (solo).

Nvm, it's just the blessing that gives an absurd ammount of charge for moving, that definitely warrants a nerf imo lol.