Cursed Scrolls, future change idea / concept

[chaotea]

Firstly let me start with a simple plea. Please remove the 'Tip' That says that cursed scrolls contain good effects as well as bad' Its obviously not true.

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Preface - The problem

Ok So let me preface by saying this isnt any kind of rage tread. Im max level, ive played the game for 130 hours to date (1 for each level. Thats nice). These are my well considdered thoughts on improving a mechanic of a game i love.

So on to the main point. Cursed scrolls are bad. Mostly bad game design to be honest.
Getting a cursed scroll is never worth it. On the off chance you have the one scroll that nullifies them then you could take them, or the scroll where you get more damage you might considder it. But Its still like saying 'theres a whole bunch of scroll you never want to get unless you have 1 scroll that renders them pointless.

The scrolls themselves are run-ending. If you get the -50% crit damage and your running a crit build, you done. Running an elemental build and you could get the 'no elements effects' scroll, and then its game over.

On paper this stuff seems fine, but its not fun getting a cursed scroll. And its never worth the trade off. The pool of cursed scrolls is quite small, for the trade off most often when offered one in a red chest of having a much lower chance of a decent scroll.

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The concept.

So whats the solution.
- You could just remove the cursed scrolls, but they have an interesting place in the game.
- You could make the rewards for them better, which would make the risk / reward more tempting. Maybe you get two scrolls and a cursed? ect.
- You could make it a chance of getting a cursed scroll aswell as a normal one. I wouldnt take a normal scroll for a cursed one. But a normal for a chance of a cursed scroll? Maybe i'd take those odds.

Then again theres another thought. There was a game, 'Megaman Battle Network'. Nice game, specifically one of the sequals. They had these special chips you could use. Powerful effects, but the reduced your max hp.

A similar effect could be introduced.
What if these red chests, isnted of offering a cursed and normal scroll, just offered a cursed scroll? Intead of say, offering -50% crit, it offered you +50% crit. What if the 'no elemental effects' became 'double elemental effects'. Make all of these cursed scrolls good eneough to compete with Legendary scrolls.
But in exchange, every one you have, regardless of its effects, reduced how much healing you recieve from all sources, ammo you pick up and money enemies drop by 20% per cursed scroll. You could set a cap for this at a 90-95% reduction, so you dont get its a situation where people cant use guns any more. Or maybe you go all the way.

In this way the cursed scrolls go from liabilities, to interesting choices. You want those powerful effects. And the first, why its just a 20% decrease. The second, well, theres a good effect in there, and you're fine for supplies at the moment. The third? You get the idea.

This suggestion also maintains the position the two cursed scroll interacting scrolls have. Negating the negitives and giving more damage.

Rather than being run ending liabilities, they become run making choices, balanced with quickly stacking cost. But a cost we choose. A cost that gives something back. Something good.

Thanks for reading. Hope this looks interesting to people.

[Gunfire Reborn]

Hello and thank you for your thorough analysis on the situation of cursed scroll and your thoughts about how to improve it.

First of all, your idea on the rework is very fresh for me. And I have already translated your idea carefully in order to fully convey your wisdom to our developers.

Secondly, as you said, the "cursed scroll" should have massive cost as well as grand boost. In this way I personally think the category "cursed scroll" should be renamed. What's your idea on the (potential) new name that calls these scrolls?

Thirdly, while some of the reworked scroll effect are attractive, some may have overlapping effect with the existing scroll, such as [Snow Boots:Gain immunity to slow effect and -50%DMG taken from traps] and cursed [Old Battle Boots:+100% DMG taken from traps and -10% speed]. If we kind of do some "about-face" thing and make the cursed one to [-50% DMG taken from traps and +10% speed], then the effect would be nearly the same (and as powerful) as normal one. What's your idea on this specific example and other potential ones? (i.e. [Ammo Belt] that doubles ammo capacity & [Inferior Magazine] that cut 20% of capacity)

Last but not least, we appreciate your advice a lot and are looking forward to your further smart words!

[chaotea]

Originally posted by Gunfire Reborn:

Hello and thank you for your thorough analysis on the situation of cursed scroll and your thoughts about how to improve it.

First of all, your idea on the rework is very fresh for me. And I have already translated your idea carefully in order to fully convey your wisdom to our developers.

Secondly, as you said, the "cursed scroll" should have massive cost as well as grand boost. In this way I personally think the "cursed scroll" should be renamed. What's your idea on the new name that calls these scrolls?

Thirdly, while some of the reworked scroll effect are attractive, some may have overlapping effect with the existing scroll, such as [Snow Boots:Gain immunity to slow effect and -50%DMG taken from traps] and cursed [Old Battle Boots:+100% DMG taken from traps and -10% speed]. If we kind of do some "about-face" thing and make the cursed one to [-50% DMG taken from traps and +10% speed], then the effect would be nearly the same (and as powerful) as normal one. What's your idea on this specific example and other potential ones? (i.e. [Ammo Belt] that doubles ammo capacity & [Inferior Magazine] that cut 20% of capacity)

Last but not least, we appreciate your advice a lot and are looking forward to your further smart words!

Thanks for the notes. Just want to say first up that im loving the game and cant wait to see what the next update brings.

To the second point, i think 'cursed scrolls' would fit the concept. The idea being that they are like normal scroll, but carry a curse. If the Devs adopted my concept, they should also remain undropable, as it deepens the importance of that initial decision.

To the third, i wanted my concept to both offer a revision, but didnt want to suggest too much change incase this became too much work to be worth making any change (i understand this game dev stuff isnt easy). My thoughts on posibilities for these scrolls could be (names might need to be adjusted of course):
Note - Numbers are just my own thoughts, pending testing. Generally its got to be worth gaining the curse, but still provide some conflict in wether its worth it. Assumed the curse works like i noted above.

- No Discounts: All weapons sold at pedler have increased level by +1. Scrolls in shop have increased chance to be rare.
- Inferior Magazine: Magazine capacity -20%, only consume ammo on hits.
- Elemental Curse: Double the duration of elemental effects.
- Cateye Sight: +10% weapon accuracy & stability on hit for 10s (up to 100%)
- Old Belt: Picking up ammo also removes 10% of the cooldown from the primary ability.
- Old Battle Boots: +20% speed to all alies in 7m. Dash distance is +50% longer.
- Cursed Magazine: Weapon damage +100%. Every shot also consumes 1 ammo from the reserve.
- Broken Bullet: Every Crit has a 20% chance to hit twice.
- Fragile Body: Take -50% damage while standing still.
- Arms trafficker: Weapon upgrades at the Craftsman are less expensive. (Instead of the price rise maxing at 600, it maxes at 500).


Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the existing cursed scrolls. Trying to look for effects that are interesting, but dont clash with existing scrolls. with each one also carrying the extra effect of -20% supplies and healing, or some similar stacking debuff, you would, as a player, have to fight your own greed. Generally i've thought about things that are powerful, but mechanically interesting rather than straight stat buffs.
Especially interesting considdering the fact you cant choose which cursed scroll you get.

Well, thanks for looking at this anyway. Hope it gives some enjoyment.

[Gunfire Reborn]

Thank you for your suggestion on these cursed scroll. I can guarantee that your idea would be fully forwarded to the corresponding producer who is in charge of designing occult scrolls.

But on another note, I notice that some scrolls here would now come with a buff(i.e. broken bullet to have 20% chance to hit twice) And I think these scroll names would not suit the actual effect of scroll themselves. But we could think of another names if we decide to change them in this way or change some % number here and there.

As you may know, we are actively developing things for the upcoming summer major update (you won't wait for too long, and I can make sure that the content in the box will not let you and our playerbase down). So when it comes to such big balancing changes, we may need more time to review your idea and the overall rework. That being said, while I can fully express your words to the devs, I couldn't instantly set an ETA/make an early promise on whether/how this rebalancing thing would be dealt with.

Anyway thank you for further clarification!

[Kwapplecrasher]

I just want to say i also really like this idea.
As it stands, Cursed Scrolls are basically "ignore the offer unless I've got Evil banishing Talisman", but with the possibility of 'great buff with great drawback' I'd be more likely to risk it.
Now there's already several scrolls with an upside and a set downside, including roughly half (13) of the legendary scrolls, so making another tier of buff/debuff will no doubt be a delicate balance.
After thinking it over a bit, I've got a few ideas here
1. Good buff on scroll, but the debuff is not set. As in it will have a good side that is the scroll, say 'Crits have 50% chance of hitting twice', but the downside, is pulled from a pool of several possibilities, inscription style
so it may get '-33% copper gain', OR '-25% accuracy and -25% stability' etc.
2. Wild idea, and likely a very tedious thing to implement, but what about instead of 'gaining a cursed scroll' you 'curse a scroll from your inventory', which empowers the positive effect of the scroll, while adding a downside as well (set or otherwise)
Anyway I love this game and can't wait to see it keep updating

[chaotea]

Originally posted by Gunfire Reborn:

Thank you for your suggestion on these cursed scroll. I can guarantee that your idea would be fully forwarded to the corresponding producer who is in charge of designing occult scrolls.

But on another note, I notice that some scrolls here would now come with a buff(i.e. broken bullet to have 20% chance to hit twice) And I think these scroll names would not suit the actual effect of scroll themselves. But we could think of another names if we decide to change them in this way or change some % number here and there.

As you may know, we are actively developing things for the upcoming summer major update (you won't wait for too long, and I can make sure that the content in the box will not let you and our playerbase down). So when it comes to such big balancing changes, we may need more time to review your idea and the overall rework. That being said, while I can fully express your words to the devs, I couldn't instantly set an ETA/make an early promise on whether/how this rebalancing thing would be dealt with.

Anyway thank you for further clarification!

Oh i absoululty understand, and im not expecting exact replication or anything. Its just more presenting an idea in order to create discourse and consideration on the topic. Obviously even if the Devs decided to take this on, it would be secondary to other already planned features too. But its just nice to know that this sort of thing is being considdered, even if nothing happens.

[chaotea]

Originally posted by Kwapplecrasher:

I just want to say i also really like this idea.
As it stands, Cursed Scrolls are basically "ignore the offer unless I've got Evil banishing Talisman", but with the possibility of 'great buff with great drawback' I'd be more likely to risk it.
Now there's already several scrolls with an upside and a set downside, including roughly half (13) of the legendary scrolls, so making another tier of buff/debuff will no doubt be a delicate balance.
After thinking it over a bit, I've got a few ideas here
1. Good buff on scroll, but the debuff is not set. As in it will have a good side that is the scroll, say 'Crits have 50% chance of hitting twice', but the downside, is pulled from a pool of several possibilities, inscription style
so it may get '-33% copper gain', OR '-25% accuracy and -25% stability' etc.
2. Wild idea, and likely a very tedious thing to implement, but what about instead of 'gaining a cursed scroll' you 'curse a scroll from your inventory', which empowers the positive effect of the scroll, while adding a downside as well (set or otherwise)
Anyway I love this game and can't wait to see it keep updating

I feel part of the issue with the cursed scrolls as they are is that you dont know what kind of downside you were going to get. Part of the core idea here is to put abit more control into the players hands. If you take a cursed scroll, youd get a garanteed effect from the curse. The idea behind it being something that reduces ammo / grenades / health pickups means that no matter what you build, the curse is garanteed to reduce your overall effectiveness. At 20%, if you got 5 you wouldnt get any pickups, but could still restore from shop supplies so its still not run ending, but just a building challange. A risk. And when the control of that risk is more predictable, its not so 'negitive fun' when it happens.

Watched a 'Devs talking about game design' video late last year, they talked about this abit. They said something like 'no one enjoys it when the game [kills] you, thats not fun. So the aim is to make sure that when a player makes a mistake and [dies] from it, its their fault. So the player then has ownership over that mistake'. It was interesting, and i think applies to alot of game design thoughts. Even cursed scrolls. Give players a predictible downside to choose from, and im sure many would take it and feel fine, because its their choice to do so.

[Cartography Dee]

Yea, the current risk/reward for cursed scrolls is pretty wonky. No reason to get a random and likely average scroll when you risk getting one of the debilitating curses. Stuff like -accuracy or -crit damage are so obnoxious that it's just never worthwhile without evil banishing talisman.

The suggestion by OP is a possible way, though it will probably take a lot of iteration to figure out an ideal solution. Another solution I'm fond of is just having scrolls with both a strong positive and a strong negative tied to them.

[chaotea]

Originally posted by Cartography Dee:

Another solution I'm fond of is just having scrolls with both a strong positive and a strong negative tied to them.

I had considered that, but it feels like they would just be normal scrolls, and with the way getting cursed scrolls work, you'd get them randomly still and so likely have the exact same issue.

[Cartography Dee]

Originally posted by chaotea:

Originally posted by Cartography Dee:

Another solution I'm fond of is just having scrolls with both a strong positive and a strong negative tied to them.

I had considered that, but it feels like they would just be normal scrolls, and with the way getting cursed scrolls work, you'd get them randomly still and so likely have the exact same issue.

They can name the curse scroll you're going to get instead of just saying 'Curse scroll'. They already do that for the player's side when you have the option to exchange a predefined scroll for another one.

[Eudicots]

If we are looking for curse scrolls to have strong negative and positive effects then Deadly Curse should probably become the standard of what cursed scrolls should be. Instead of a player receiving one random scroll + a curse scroll from a red chest you would only receive a random curse scroll. This scroll should change one's playstyle without directly ending a run. It could be something like -50% Crit damage, but explosions have +3m AOE. This way players can still adapt while providing enough risk and reward to curse scrolls.

[felixader]

I agree with the original poster and want to chime in with a very short experience quip.

I have 50 hours in the game. For the last at least 40 basically any choice on the chest that offered a cursed scroll might as well just not have been there, with exception of the getting the curses negating scroll early on, of course.
I have not taken on any of these since simply choosing nothing, to me at least, feels to be the best choice here.

I am more likely to take a choice that reduces my life to a few points over zero a stage before a boss then take a choice that offers a cursed scroll in exchanged for getting something.

[chaotea]

Originally posted by felixader:

I agree with the original poster and want to chime in with a very short experience quip.

I have 50 hours in the game. For the last at least 40 basically any choice on the chest that offered a cursed scroll might as well just not have been there, with exception of the getting the curses negating scroll early on, of course.
I have not taken on any of these since simply choosing nothing, to me at least, feels to be the best choice here.

I am more likely to take a choice that reduces my life to a few points over zero a stage before a boss then take a choice that offers a cursed scroll in exchanged for getting something.

This was my thought to.

The issue as i see it is that while 80% of the curses tend to be ignorable for a particular build, the change of getting that 1 scroll that ends you is too risky, especially as the payoff, at best, is a 1 in 30 chance of a scroll thats actually good for you.

Im of the opinion generally that i'd like the cused scrolls to be a 'hard mode' modifier. Each one giving you a predictable, stacking level of difficulty that you can willingly take on if you think you can handle it.

[letir]

IMO, scrolls like "Deadly Curse" is exactly how cursed scrolls should work - big benefit with big payment, which you could negate through right build. Current system have too much random factors between possible curses/rewards.

Instead I would propose to rework "curses" from chests into temporary effects, which lasts several rooms. It would fit gameplay much better than "pay %HP now, eat bun later".

[chaotea]

Originally posted by mar:

IMO, scrolls like "Deadly Curse" is exactly how cursed scrolls should work - big benefit with big payment, which you could negate through right build. Current system have too much random factors between possible curses/rewards.

Instead I would propose to rework "curses" from chests into temporary effects, which lasts several rooms. It would fit gameplay much better than "pay %HP now, eat bun later".

Hades does a similar thing. What i was trying to propose was a system that isnt too far from whats currently in the game, in the hopes it might make the change more likely to happen.

Still, the idea of 'bounty scrolls' is interesting. Might expand on that in another topic.

[felixader]

I also find that the curses in the game Dead Cells work in a very interesting way.

in Dead Cells you can open some chests for their contents that are cursed. Those curses are not permanent but impose a sort of challenge on the player.

For example: the player could die from just a single hit but if they manage to kill 20 enemies without being hit the curse gets lifted.