Does every death have to be a oneshot?

[Netsa]

I've gotten killed by several sources, but pretty much all of them have been bursts that did at least 80% of my health in damage through my shields. I assume this will matter less once I get all of the defense buffs off the talent tree, but it's really frustrating that the game is designed this way. Why can't damage be between the extremes of "barely dents my shields" and "kills me from full unless I have multiple damage reductions"?

Examples: Nihilation Monk's balls, Wind God's rush, sand worm's laser (dodging in the wrong direction at the start of the fight is a death), battle ship's row blast, etc.

[Biervampir [AUT]]

Aoe Bai is for sure the squishyest of them all, with him it happened to me quite some times, that I got one shottet.
With the other heros, I never realy had that issue, especially not with Qing Yan. That bird is tanky af

[chaotea]

For bosses, their attacks are generally hard hitting damage, the emphesis being that you need to dodge to succeed, rather than tank hits.

I'd say the issue is more due to experience. As you get to know the game more, and as you say level up, you learn which enemies have those powerful attacks and how to avoid them.

[Netsa]

Originally posted by chaotea:

I'd say the issue is more due to experience. As you get to know the game more, and as you say level up, you learn which enemies have those powerful attacks and how to avoid them.

That's one way of looking at it, but it feels cheap. Learning the enemies is fine, but practically guaranteeing an instant death the first time you see them doesn't feel right.

Originally posted by Biervampir AUT:

Aoe Bai is for sure the squishyest of them all, with him it happened to me quite some times, that I got one shottet.
With the other heros, I never realy had that issue, especially not with Qing Yan. That bird is tanky af

I was actually talking about Crown Prince. I completed Normal mode for the first time on my first run with Ao Bai because I got a god run. I maxed several Dual Wield buffs, and I got a ton of damage buffs, speed buffs, health regeneration, and explosion bonuses with no waste and no tradeoffs. I even got both "negate cursed scrolls" and "gain damage from cursed scrolls" in that same run (with extra cursed scrolls). By the end, I was basically invincible as long as I was in dual wield mode and my "80% extra damage on the last shot" rocket launcher had over 100% lucky shot chance. Even without the god run, though, Ao Bai's ascensions seem like they have better survivability options.

Crown Prince feels more like a glass cannon in comparison. Slowest base speed, and it feels like if I can't completely disable the enemy and kill them before they get to me, I'm probably going to die.

It might be an unfair comparison, though, since I haven't seen Ao Bai at his worst yet. I'm just not sure how to build kitty. Build for gas grenade (if it lets me, because my RNG with grenade buffs has been crap) and normal stuff dies quickly, but I can't hit bosses. Build for energy orb and everything dies faster, but it feels way more RNG-reliant (getting good weapons and getting the Extra Charges ascension to drop). Build for elemental damage and both my energy orb and my gas grenade suck.

[chaotea]

Originally posted by Netsa:

Originally posted by chaotea:

I'd say the issue is more due to experience. As you get to know the game more, and as you say level up, you learn which enemies have those powerful attacks and how to avoid them.

That's one way of looking at it, but it feels cheap. Learning the enemies is fine, but practically guaranteeing an instant death the first time you see them doesn't feel right.

Its sort of the experience of most roguelikes. Your supposed to die early on the first couple. Not sure i made it past the first boss until playthrough 7-9. Other than the bosses, theres no instant kills in the first zone. The homing shot guys can get you if your in the open, but the projectiles are slow enough that you can avoid them by walking sideways. The rest of the time you die so quickly is mostly the first time you encounter an enemy.

[Netsa]

By the way, is there any way to avoid Wind God's slam at all on Crown Prince without speed buffs?

Originally posted by chaotea:

Its sort of the experience of most roguelikes. Your supposed to die early on the first couple. Not sure i made it past the first boss until playthrough 7-9. Other than the bosses, theres no instant kills in the first zone. The homing shot guys can get you if your in the open, but the projectiles are slow enough that you can avoid them by walking sideways. The rest of the time you die so quickly is mostly the first time you encounter an enemy.

Yeah, but I'm used to that kind of thing being my fault, not inexperience alone. Like, I took the wrong weapons, I messed up my dodges, I wasn't watching my back, I didn't heal, I took tradeoff buffs, I took too many chances, I got greedy, etc, and that's why I died. Not "a guy teleported behind me and oneshot me because I didn't know he could do that".

Sure, the next time I see that guy, I'll know he's capable of doing that and I'll be more prepared. But why is that one attack's damage run-endingly high when he's not even a boss?

It only took me about 4 or 5 tries to pass the swamp (only counting the runs in which I made it there), but the sheer number of things doing 80-100% of my health there that I had to make note of only after they killed me was a little ridiculous. Catfish Gunner was one, the little sword guys during the boss battle were another. Nihilation Monk has made me avoid like the plague any scroll that has "+ damage taken" on it, since the one time he hit me would have been an instant death if I had kept Dual Edge on.

[letir]

There is plenty of different attacks which dosen't mean "instant death" and kill in some time. You just don't noticing them so much because mooks tend to miss against moving target.

The only "unfair" attack, IMO, is bombardment Yoruhime-Maru. Everything else can be predicted and avoided.

[Netsa]

Originally posted by mar:

There is plenty of different attacks which dosen't mean "instant death" and kill in some time. You just don't noticing them so much because mooks tend to miss against moving target.

The only "unfair" attack, IMO, is bombardment Yoruhime-Maru. Everything else can be predicted and avoided.

Tried again to defeat Yoru with the cat, got him to the last phase, and got instakilled by the double-cannonball. Can those giant cannonballs hit you before hitting the ground? Because I could swear I was clear outside of any red zones when I died.

[parent child bowl]

You can shoot the cannonballs out of the air.

[Netsa]

Originally posted by parent child bowl:

You can shoot the cannonballs out of the air.

Oh, that would have been nice to know. I guess that's also a "yes" to my previous question, too. Once again, I wonder how I'm possibly supposed to prepare for that unless I already know about it beforehand. The time between him firing the cannons and me getting hit was about 1 second.

[stealthXG]

Originally posted by Netsa:

Originally posted by parent child bowl:

You can shoot the cannonballs out of the air.

Oh, that would have been nice to know. I guess that's also a "yes" to my previous question, too. Once again, I wonder how I'm possibly supposed to prepare for that unless I already know about it beforehand. The time between him firing the cannons and me getting hit was about 1 second.

You can also stand behind 1 of the 3 large objects and the explosion won't hit you.

[Netsa]

Originally posted by stealthXG:

Originally posted by Netsa:

Oh, that would have been nice to know. I guess that's also a "yes" to my previous question, too. Once again, I wonder how I'm possibly supposed to prepare for that unless I already know about it beforehand. The time between him firing the cannons and me getting hit was about 1 second.

You can also stand behind 1 of the 3 large objects and the explosion won't hit you.

Also good to know, but that's in contrast to the rest of the fight. I'm pretty sure the other cannon attacks ignore the blockades, so I was under the impression that they didn't matter.

[chaotea]

Originally posted by Netsa:

By the way, is there any way to avoid Wind God's slam at all on Crown Prince without speed buffs?

Yep. You dodge. 1 dodge without any speed scrolls can get you out of the AoE. Then you just avoid the red lines that indicate the tornados paths.

Originally posted by Netsa:

Yeah, but I'm used to that kind of thing being my fault, not inexperience alone. Like, I took the wrong weapons, I messed up my dodges, I wasn't watching my back, I didn't heal, I took tradeoff buffs, I took too many chances, I got greedy, etc, and that's why I died. Not "a guy teleported behind me and oneshot me because I didn't know he could do that".

Sure, the next time I see that guy, I'll know he's capable of doing that and I'll be more prepared. But why is that one attack's damage run-endingly high when he's not even a boss?

Im not overly sure who you mean here. Only teleporters are Nihilation monks, and they dont 1 shot, though they do hurt.

Originally posted by Netsa:

It only took me about 4 or 5 tries to pass the swamp (only counting the runs in which I made it there), but the sheer number of things doing 80-100% of my health there that I had to make note of only after they killed me was a little ridiculous. Catfish Gunner was one, the little sword guys during the boss battle were another. Nihilation Monk has made me avoid like the plague any scroll that has "+ damage taken" on it, since the one time he hit me would have been an instant death if I had kept Dual Edge on.

Again, in a weird way this is still experience. Played through a run the other day were i was taking +150% damage total (dealing alot too and lifsteal) and a rarely even broke sheilds. You just come to know when to duck behind cover, when to push, what enemies to hit quick, ect. But this is after 130 hours of experience. It doesnt happen over night, but it does happen.

[Netsa]

Originally posted by chaotea:

Again, in a weird way this is still experience. Played through a run the other day were i was taking +150% damage total (dealing alot too and lifsteal) and a rarely even broke sheilds. You just come to know when to duck behind cover, when to push, what enemies to hit quick, ect. But this is after 130 hours of experience. It doesnt happen over night, but it does happen.

Most enemies rarely break shields anyway unless you get hit multiple times, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about bursts and other very-high-damage attacks, most of which come from bosses. If you're tanking cannonballs with 150% extra damage taken, I question whether we're playing the same game.

What level is your character, what character were you playing, and have you tried doing that on a new profile?

Originally posted by chaotea:

Im not overly sure who you mean here.

I was talking about the Nihilation Monks and, yes, they can oneshot. With neutral damage taken, I was barely left alive after getting hit once with full health and shields.

On the rest of that quote, I was trying to differentiate between preparation and prior knowledge. Winning in this game seems to rely more on leveling up your character and already knowing everything about every enemy before you play the game. It doesn't feel skill-based.

[letir]

Originally posted by Netsa:

I was talking about the Nihilation Monks and, yes, they can oneshot. With neutral damage taken, I was barely left alive after getting hit once with full health and shields.

Nihilation monks have one of the slowest, most telegraphed ranged attack in the whole game.

[Netsa]

Originally posted by mar:

Originally posted by Netsa:

I was talking about the Nihilation Monks and, yes, they can oneshot. With neutral damage taken, I was barely left alive after getting hit once with full health and shields.

Nihilation monks have one of the slowest, most telegraphed ranged attack in the whole game.

They teleport outside of your view and their attacks home in on you. Come on.

If they teleport behind you and you didn't detect that by looking at your map, they can easily land a shot on you. Telegraphing only matters if you're:
1. Familiar with the telegraph.
2. Can see the telegraph.

Also, having a heavily telegraphed attack isn't an excuse for a oneshot. No other non-boss enemy in the game does that much damage after a long telegraph (as far as I know). Nihilation Monk is a complete blindside the first time you fail to kill him during his red field dance.

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(Below is a Semi-Unrelated Rant About Yoruhime)

By this point, I've pretty much given up trying to win with Crown Prince outside of multiplayer, since I keep getting instantly killed one way or another at Yoruhime. I weathered everything else, I can make it to the final boss very easily now, but I might as well not even have a health bar once I get to him unless I get lucky with rebirth/anti-instadeath scrolls. Which I never do.

I don't know how that fight can be defended. It's the very last fight, so every time anything taps me, I have to start the entire game over. Once, I made the mistake of being on a corner of the field when he went into his invincibility phase. Practically no time to react before the row blast deleted me from the fight, because they started from that side of the field.

This "difficulty" is the most artificial crap. It's not "hard" if I don't even know what to do. The time between a red field appearing and instantly killing you is so short, you're not really given any time to learn the fight or figure out the mechanics. To properly learn the fight without turning to the internet or the forums, I have to keep playing the rest of the game over and over again just to get back to that one battle.