The "If you don't like it don't play it." argument.

[Wyrdplae]

Please stop saying this. It's a really bad argument. I'm so disheartened when I join a thread cuz the OP has raised a valid concern and there is almost always someone being horrible. with this phrase or some variant as their main message.

Firstly: It's really disrespectful to the other human you're speaking to. They have taken time out of their day to try and raise an issue to improve a game and you're telling this person to shut up and leave. These are some of the people you have a lot in common with. you love games and even the same games. that's a narrow band. obviously that doesn't cover all differences but i think you take the point

Second: what is it you think the devs do? They are CONSTANTLY unhappy with the game and are improving things all the time. Are you going to tell them to leave too?

I really don't understand why people in some of the posts are so violently adverse to change. If you don't think something needs to be changed just say that. the idea that if someone else DOES think it should be changed that it then means that you should tell them simply not to play is mind bendingly silly.

I'm not here to start drama and maybe I've called out someone that's done this and they feel attacked. that truly isn't my intent. you love this game and so do I. you are my people. I just wish you would stop making an argument that doesn't do anything for anyone. nothing other than stifle conversation and make others feel bad. or at the very least. consider that this may be the case.

have a rad day.

Rhys.

[Marthel]

You should understand that these people are frustrated that the game they like is being insulted, but they are out of arguements to counter criticism. So they just want to end any rant with the most powerful, in their opinion, way. In a way they are not wrong I guess.

[Wyrdplae]

It isn't really a matter of being right or wrong. It's just not a constructive way to conduct themselves. being defensive to the point of insulting people isn't the way forward. and frankly its a misfire most of the time anyway. most of the time, at least the times ive seen, it isn't someone actually insulting a game they love. its someone doing something that devs and and steam encourage.

[Chimera]

Yeah, I don't see why some people love taking up the mantle when a game they like is being criticized. They come up and tell the ones criticizing it every sort of fallacious bull. If you've got nothing constructive to add or a reasonable counterpoint to the suggestion/criticism, just don't say anything. They should be taking their own advice and leaving lol.

[HoneyDrake]

"If you don't like it, don't play it" is sadly the best answer to most people not understanding how anything works.

If you enjoy a game, want to see improvements, how about coming up with CONSTRUCTIVE feedback?

If you are not a fan of turn based combat, complaining about ... well... turn based combat... then freaking move on! The game is not for you and you should NOT BE ALLOWED to have an opinion of the game is good or not.


-----

The issue is that people COMPLAIN.

They have no arguments, they have no constructive feedback, it's just someone starting an "discussion" but are the least ones to actually take part in any form of argumentation because they lack... arguments...


So yes: "if you don't like it, don't play it" is the perfect answer to those people. There are enough titles out there and they should just play those instead.

[Chimera]

Originally posted by Honey Drake:

"If you don't like it, don't play it" is sadly the best answer to most people not understanding how anything works.

If you enjoy a game, want to see improvements, how about coming up with CONSTRUCTIVE feedback

Yeah that's a good point as well. Many people don't know how to give proper feedback. There's a bad culture in general when it comes to criticism imo.

[~That Goddamn Trans Rights Panda]

somtimes it's the correct answer though.
sometimes a game just isn't for you and wishing it was made differently tailored specifically to you is often the wrong answer, leaving only "if you don't like it, don't play it" as the only valid option. can't be hard to find a game that is more suited to your tastes! and i say this respectfully ofc.

but obviously its the wrong answer if someone is just providing constructive feedback to the game, in the scope of the game's established lore & audience obviously :)

[Wyrdplae]

I mean this is not how I see it play out often.

if a game is turn based and someone is complaining about wanting it to be, id be right there with you saying this game isn't for you don't play it. maybe you see that complaint but in my eyes that isn't what i see come up. that feels like a straw man. and I'm not trying to start an argument with you i just think that's a really "worst case argument" and i don't see that as being the majority of the complaints that get told this "if you don't like it don't play" message. That is such a radical change that 100% you're right they need to find another game.

the thing I'm kicking back against is that I see this used on the other thing you mentioned. people complaining without any constructive things to add. and on this i have much more to agree with you but to some extent i still think the way these people are treated isn't the best way. the reasons i think this is:

1. the metric by which any given person judges what is constructive is endlessly variable. if its a simple solution do they need to be less constructive? should the level of help be to suggest an alternative? what if they do suggest an alternative and its wrong and wouldn't work? what if some of us agree but some think it would make the game worse. which people are then justified to say "if you don't like it don't play it."

and 2. I've heard many dev's say that they PREFER players to simply say how they feel. and what they get annoyed by and for the love of god not to suggest ideas as they're normally wrong.
and frankly i agree. i write a lot and when i ask for feedback on a book i want a readers sentiment. if they tell me what they think should change it almost always goes against some aspect that the reader didn't understand and couldn't know and ends up useless.
and i see this in myself. sometimes i think i know what fix would be best. and later i find out exactly why my idea wouldn't work. I'm not a dev. I don't know the back end. I'm not qualified to suggest fixes. but i am uniquely qualified to tell the dev's how something made me feel and i find that to be much more productive. people often have this idea that they need to fix things and everyone has the same idea. makes it counterproductive sometimes.

that is why i really feel like it isn't a fair argument.

what I end up landing on is that neither I nor the people that use that argument know what the best course of action is. but only one party is belittling another person. unless the dev's come out and say don't give feedback unless it is supposing a solution I'm not comfortable with the idea that its ok to use the "possibility" that that's what the dev's want as a justification to make someone feel unwelcome or to diminish their voice.

[Wyrdplae]

and again i mean no ill will. i wasn't saying you're intentionally strawmanning anyone or any thing. i really respect what you said. i just think perhaps you gave an example to clarify the situation and like all good examples it was in a very clear case that shows the point and i don't know if that's how i normally see it.

sorry for going on i just wanna make that clear that you weren't being unfair in what you said and i wasn't trying to make you out to be.

[Andrew]

l2p

[Ninja Zyborg]

Originally posted by Honey Drake:

So yes: "if you don't like it, don't play it" is the perfect answer to those people. There are enough titles out there and they should just play those instead.

That is the weakest argument for that kind of response that I have ever seen. those other games AREN'T THE SAME.


Let's start with Robocraft as an example:
several years ago, the devs changed the game in a way that the community didn't like.
Imagine you tell those people "If you don't like it, don't play it. There's other similar games."
you would be wrong.
D.R.O.N.E. - appears to be abandoned
Crossout - grindfest to the max, nothing like the balanced (as far as I can remember) progression of old Robocraft. Actually would be fairly close outside of that, though.
Procelio - I think they're still pre-alpha? Looks like it's trying to replicate old RC though.

and now we go back to Gunfire Reborn.
What game is similar enough to fit this response perfectly?
And no, Risk of Rain 2 doesn't work.


If they are on the forums asking for a reasonable change, then they probably enjoy the game and are playing it.

And finally, if you say "if you don't like it, don't play it." to everyone with reasonable suggestions, you eventually run out of players for the game. Just look at Robocraft now.


TLDR; "if you don't like it, don't play it." is stupid. Use it only if the person you are talking to clearly makes no attempt to understand the other side or blatantly ignores points against them.

[parent child bowl]

Originally posted by Ninja Zyborg:

If they are on the forums asking for a reasonable change, then they probably enjoy the game and are playing it.

This is exactly the problem. It's a gigantic "if". Reasonable suggestions are extremely rare.

The vast majority of threads on this forum are just whining about stuff that people don't understand. They make no attempt to understand what they are talking about and in response to that they get ♥♥♥♥ on. Windgod threads pretty much always fall into that category.

[StuffedPlatypusLuvsOrigamiRabbit]

Maybe they just need someone to tell them to git gud? The threads that bug me the most are people asking for the game to be made easier when they have 2 hours played. I'm sorry you didn't win your first run in a roguelite.

[Wyrdplae]

Originally posted by parent child bowl:

Originally posted by Ninja Zyborg:

If they are on the forums asking for a reasonable change, then they probably enjoy the game and are playing it.

This is exactly the problem. It's a gigantic "if". Reasonable suggestions are extremely rare.

The vast majority of threads on this forum are just whining about stuff that people don't understand. They make no attempt to understand what they are talking about and in response to that they get ♥♥♥♥ on. Windgod threads pretty much always fall into that category.

i mean that kind of proves the point. if people are winging about wind god perhaps there is an issue there. have i learned to overcome it? yes. does that mean they the game not communicating whats expected is ok. depends who you ask. but the fact people point to that over and over again clearly means it is aggravating many people. and where you see no issue maybe the devs DO maybe they want the new player experience to not be met by that kind of roadblock. and again. maybe they DONT the point isnt that i know what the devs want its that none of us do, so the justification to use rude and reductive phrases is a weak one.

ultimately maybe the devs want that boss to be somewhat trial and error. or they like that you have to learn about it over many runs. but the way people give feedback is clearly serving a purpose. to reduce that all down to "if you dont like it dont play." IS absurd. even if the argument they make is totally ignorant. my point still stands, that phrase is belittling people when many other options are available.

[Wyrdplae]

Originally posted by idontlike****idontgooutside:

Maybe they just need someone to tell them to git gud? The threads that bug me the most are people asking for the game to be made easier when they have 2 hours played. I'm sorry you didn't win your first run in a roguelite.

as someone that's been on the other end of the phrase get good many times. sometimes warranted sometimes not, i can say all telling me that did was make me think the person saying it was a tool. nothing more. maybe i have a shorter fuse than most, but i really don't think i do. i think most people respond the same way to being told get good. if you wanna tell them to get good just say what the reason they're failing is. its not that hard.
you can even just say "with experience you'll overcome that" its 5 words and its so much more useful than just aggravating people.

[StuffedPlatypusLuvsOrigamiRabbit]

Originally posted by Smuss Daddy:

Originally posted by idontlike****idontgooutside:

Maybe they just need someone to tell them to git gud? The threads that bug me the most are people asking for the game to be made easier when they have 2 hours played. I'm sorry you didn't win your first run in a roguelite.

as someone that's been on the other end of the phrase get good many times. sometimes warranted sometimes not, i can say all telling me that did was make me think the person saying it was a tool. nothing more. maybe i have a shorter fuse than most, but i really don't think i do. i think most people respond the same way to being told get good. if you wanna tell them to get good just say what the reason they're failing is. its not that hard.
you can even just say "with experience you'll overcome that" its 5 words and its so much more useful than just aggravating people.

tl;dr