skirmish AI

[RON_PAUL_2012]

I used to love setting up a tower defense map when i was a kid (particularly in Red Alert), however when i try to do this in the remaster the AI seems to stop almost everything after a short time. once i defeat a few waves they just stay stuck in their base. Anyone have any suggestions for how to stop this or fix this? thanks in advance.

[^1Romanov77]

AI rework will be the cornerstone of eventual RA 2 and Tiberian Sun remakes as while this current remaster has serviceable AI, those two games had the most pathetic excuse of an AI ever seen in RTS and yet they are hailed as great games.

AI in RTS doesn't need hp buffs or fancy tactics, it needs to build tons of units and A-Moving into your bases. Blizzard games AI can do that, why can't C&C have the same?

[JMcShane]

C&C ra runs on a a older game eng and ai on blizzard games jsut as easy as this game to me there the same beat the first wave of ai and then your good

[Imeror]

Once again, I totally disagree. About your first paragraph, game editor is not in my eye a real training. In skirmish mode, you can discover maps, test new build order, time if you can produce your unit in a reasonable amount of time, etc,... So no. In my eyes, skirmish is fun for testing new strategies without being under pressure by an aggresive opponent.
Next, I began RTS with Dune II (I know, I'm old), and contrary to what you say, "very very old ones" don't had any skirmish, same goes for original Tiberian Dawn. It came later with Warcraft and it was extremely limited. AI began the game with their base fully build and just create a random unit that attack your base from time to time. Yet, it was enough to have hours of fun on it. You survived the first attack (probably hardly, as they can train an elite knight while your first barrack is not even build), then you build up your own army before razing ennemy village in a big battle. But let's be honest, the real interest was the campaign. Why play skirmish while you have a cool story to discover ?

About your second paragraph, look again the videos that you talk about. In most of them, players are against 7 AI at highest difficulty. That's the only way they have to create a real challenge against AI : give them absurd bonuses. That's why I talked about difficulties level in TW series, they have never succeed to create good AI, so they give massive buffs to their units. I've not tried, but I'm sure that 1 player vs 7 AI would also be a challenge in C&C remaster too, because together AI would have insane amount of money and you would face armies far larger than yours.


I'm not saying that skirmish mode is useless, far from it. I play skirmish in many games for various reason, not only to train before multi. I like to launch a big battle in a total war game and zoom at my men wkile those two big armies clashes ; try to defeat as fast as possible the AI in AoE III in the hardest difficulty available ; launch random game to cut Orks into pieces as Space Marines in Dawn of War II just because I like the setting of the 41st millenium.
Never bacause AI is great or because it is a challenge.

Skirmish don't exist in RTS to create challenge. It's just here to show what the game looks like and let the player use it as a kind of sandbox. Nothing more.

[James Ryan]

- I gave more examples than "game editor" ("tutorial mission or a test-map or an encyclopedia")
- The problem about (your) opinion related to the topic is that the world is made/defined/accepted by "quantity" opinion and if you ask most people about skirmish, I dont think they see it as a "dead ai standing anywhere and you can test your strategies on it". Also, historically from all games (skirmish or not), Ive not seen such a thing inside that. And last but least, still the devs have to mark that idea then which they did not. And very last but least is that even your suggested idea of what this skirmish should be does not work, because the skirmish of this game is so buggy that ai does nothing, not "weak ai", its a completely buggy ai and you cant train on it or test strategies on it. By that, the level editor and place units on it or tutorial mission or a test-map/test field or an encyclopedia or even the SP missions fits better again (for your wantings)...
- @Difficutlies: Since the skirmish mode and ai is fully bugged, it does not work...

Skirmish is buggy and useless here, thats my critic.

And btw. I currently install 2004/2005 EA game "lotr:battle of middleearth" <--- I can really recommend it because it has an awesome skirmish mode + great mods and still is played a lot by a dedicated fanbase offline against ai in masses. Nothing compareable to C&C trash ai/skirmish, sorry for beeing harsh but theres no soft or better words you can use for this piece of worse part from the game even if you want^^

[TheNewGuest]

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but man the C&C Skirmish AI is absolutely atrocious. On hard it does nothing but send 3-4 infantry and a vehicle every 10 minutes. So glad I just watched a friend play rather than buy myself. James Ryan, kudos for going up against some of the biggest fanboys in denial I've ever seen. EA could have just paid a amateur modder to make better AI than this.

[Nyerguds]

TheNewGuest původně napsal:

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but man the C&C Skirmish AI is absolutely atrocious. On hard it does nothing but send 3-4 infantry and a vehicle every 10 minutes. So glad I just watched a friend play rather than buy myself. James Ryan, kudos for going up against some of the biggest fanboys in denial I've ever seen. EA could have just paid a amateur modder to make better AI than this.

The Skirmish AI was never influenced by difficulty levels. Difficulty is just a set of buffs and nerfs to the AI and player side's units.

The AI is simply exactly what it was back in '96.

[Z2k1]

TheNewGuest původně napsal:

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but man the C&C Skirmish AI is absolutely atrocious. On hard it does nothing but send 3-4 infantry and a vehicle every 10 minutes. So glad I just watched a friend play rather than buy myself. James Ryan, kudos for going up against some of the biggest fanboys in denial I've ever seen. EA could have just paid a amateur modder to make better AI than this.

None of use expected the AI to have advanced heuristics or anything. James' problem was that he expected something that wasn't promised.

What did they promise?

"Skirmish Mode — Take on the AI — with controllable difficulty settings — in Skirmish mode, new for Tiberian Dawn."

Nothing about that is false. The AI is there, but it's stupid. It does have difficulty settings, though the AI remains dumb and just gets unit buffs or debuffs. And Skirmish IS new for Tiberian Dawn. No one said anything about the AI being significantly different from before. Skirmish has always been an afterthought in this series.

[Ceejay]

I know this thread is basically dead, but just wanted to say, after playing all the c&c games, I must admit I am surprised how bad the ai in this is, even if they do not run out of ore, its things like I have seen them put units just standing infront of their refinery's etc, so harvesters cannot get in etc...Its like, just move the stupid unit out the way...I mean how hard is that to program, is unit a in the way of unit b, getting to structure A, if so move unit...it is kind of a really basic check(I know its harder than that to actually program, but you get the point)

It is just so bad, Ive no idea why they even bothered with a skirmish, i have not yet had a map where the enemy ai has actually played properly,l they always get stuck. mid way through, oddly though I have yet to see a friendly ai get stuck.....

[Rydychyn]

Hard AI, rush Yard with literally anything, they sell up everything and surrender.

[corestandeven]

I know the devs said in their FAQ's that Havester AI is terrible, but I really don't understand why they seemingly are unwilling to try and fix it? Skirmish is largely ok at the start, but just descends into boredom in mid to late game.

Every game against Hard AI plays out the same now: 20 mins of challenge where the AI comes at you, and then nothing. They get stuck at their own base and then you spend the rest of the match just mopping them up each in turn.

Yes I know you can try and do things to help unblock them, like airstriking a unit that might be in their way or nuking an area, but it rarely shakes them out of the situation for long.

If the AI can't be fixed maybe having some larger maps may help? Or the dev's make it so the enemy AI spaces out buildings better? In all the games I'm playing they seem to build the Refinery right next to the Warfactory, and the build up of vehicles produced often seems the cause of the blockage.

[thebiomage]

corestandeven původně napsal:

If the AI can't be fixed maybe having some larger maps may help? Or the dev's make it so the enemy AI spaces out buildings better? In all the games I'm playing they seem to build the Refinery right next to the Warfactory, and the build up of vehicles produced often seems the cause of the blockage.

I made a compstomp map that has massive space and resources for the AI to build bases, and it does seem to help them out. I've seen them do insanely large attacks on that map, think the biggest I counted was 70 vehicles coming at one time (all from the same AI). They also keep attacking throughout the entire game. But yeah there's still the occasional harvesters getting stuck issue.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2237994893

[Teratus]

Yep, just seem to stop after a while in Skirmish, even ally AI just stops building and barely builds up forces.

Virtually no difference in difficulty.

[Cat]

Rydychyn původně napsal:

Hard AI, rush Yard with literally anything, they sell up everything and surrender.

Sounds like most real human opponents.

Teratus původně napsal:

Yep, just seem to stop after a while in Skirmish, even ally AI just stops building and barely builds up forces.

Virtually no difference in difficulty.

That's because there are none, other than stat changes. Seems the AI is truly faithful to the original.

The game does support mods so it does give you the option to play with better computer players if you subscribe to the mod.

[corestandeven]

Cat původně napsal:

The game does support mods so it does give you the option to play with better computer players if you subscribe to the mod.

Whilst that is great, sadly it doesn't help in multiplayer. Sometimes me and my mate decide to be on the same team and face off against the AI. As Mods are banned when playing multiplayer we can't use the better AI ones.

It would be great if the developer made an exception and just allowed the better AI mod to be allowed for multiplayer. It may solve the problem and moans from people like me. :)

[Teratus]

Cat původně napsal:

Rydychyn původně napsal:

Hard AI, rush Yard with literally anything, they sell up everything and surrender.

Sounds like most real human opponents.

Teratus původně napsal:

Yep, just seem to stop after a while in Skirmish, even ally AI just stops building and barely builds up forces.

Virtually no difference in difficulty.

That's because there are none, other than stat changes. Seems the AI is truly faithful to the original.

The game does support mods so it does give you the option to play with better computer players if you subscribe to the mod.

I guess I can't really speak for the original.. I never had the original Red Alert, I had RA Retaliation on the Ps1 which I think was just the expansions of Red Alert 1.
But I don't recall this being an issue in that version.

Then again once enemies started building up a good few units in Skirmish mode the framerate would dive into the gutter and the game would drag on very slowly XD so that's probably why lmao

From what i've noticed the computer will never build ships in Skirmish which sucks.. or more accurately they never build the buildings they need to make those units.
They also won't build any aircraft or anti aircraft stuff unless the player constructs air units first.

As far as the whole AI stopping thing goes I think it's tied to some kind risk factor..
I've been playing with AI allies lately and they suffer the same issue as well.. eventually all AI players get to a certain unit count or base size or something and they stop attacking each other.

I have a feeling it's because something is telling the AI that they cannot win if they attack this base, (defensive structures probably have a lot to do with that, specially since the AI loves building craptons of soldiers) so they simply don't bother attacking any more and the AI also doesn't seem to like building over a certain number of units either.. so they can't overwhelm you with sheer numbers.

Once I start "downsizing" the enemy bases the ally AI does eventually start attacking them again.
So the AI doesn't stop working.. not really, it's more like they all just come to the same conclusion that they cannot win or something so they just don't bother trying anymore lol
Least that's the impression I get from my own experiences with it.