Potion Craft: Alchemist Simulator

Potion Craft: Alchemist Simulator

Difficulty balancing: Higher difficulties should also nerf the garden. And should nerf prices less.
As it stands, the garden is totally unaffected by difficulty, so it still throws huge quantities of whatever you can grow at you. Meanwhile buying ingredients is totally useless as the prices are terrible.

Thus the main thing raising the difficulty does is force you to focus on your garden, rather than actually feeling harder.

So make the merchant prices a little less brutal and make the garden not give out quite so many free ingredients.
Отредактировано rkkn; 8 дек. 2024 г. в 1:55
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I'm enjoying the higher difficulty so far, honestly. Especially with "every request has at least one mandatory additional requirement" in Suffering mode, the extremely limited supply of the non-starter ingredients makes things challenging in a different way. Things that I have purchased but can't grow myself yet normally end up being "include at least one X" type requests, rather than for ease of navigation.
Having to rely on what I can grow myself to cover everything means that I'm using more of the basics. Nerfing how well the garden grows would be really painful. Making the prices cheaper would water down the tough decision making space that exists at the moment, where being able to grow something new radically changes things, and deciding what to go for is a meaningful and significant choice.

Different strokes for different folks, obviously.
Another (extra) difficulty level with less garden and easier prices would offer different challenges, but I'm really enjoying how Suffering level is balanced at the moment and would be sad to lose this particular set-up if things do get tweaked and rebalanced in the future.
Автор сообщения: pickupsticks
I'm enjoying the higher difficulty so far, honestly. Especially with "every request has at least one mandatory additional requirement" in Suffering mode, the extremely limited supply of the non-starter ingredients makes things challenging in a different way. Things that I have purchased but can't grow myself yet normally end up being "include at least one X" type requests, rather than for ease of navigation.
Having to rely on what I can grow myself to cover everything means that I'm using more of the basics. Nerfing how well the garden grows would be really painful. Making the prices cheaper would water down the tough decision making space that exists at the moment, where being able to grow something new radically changes things, and deciding what to go for is a meaningful and significant choice.

Different strokes for different folks, obviously.
Another (extra) difficulty level with less garden and easier prices would offer different challenges, but I'm really enjoying how Suffering level is balanced at the moment and would be sad to lose this particular set-up if things do get tweaked and rebalanced in the future.

Nah suffering is very poorly balanced, it absolutely needs a rework, not tweaks; a straight up rework.

Part of the fun in the game is finding out very efficient potion recipes, those vaunted level 3 Effects with a single ingredient, Necromancy in just a few ingredients using the various mechanics for crafting potions to great effect, etc. Finding out ways to use Ingredients creatively to increase efficiency is a very fun part of the game. This part of the game is inaccessible on Suffering difficulty, since you're forced to use the same damn ingredients over and over to just brute force your way to different effects.

Herein lies the problem; Suffering is not hard, it's just grindy for no good reason. It should reward skill and careful planning but it doesn't accomplish any of that.

First change I would make is ditch the multiplier style of difficulty, it's boring and lame. Instead I would drastically reduce the quantity of available ingredients (from merchants and garden) but increase the variety of ingredients (so you have choices). So even if you have the money, you still have to be as efficient as possible. This means that you have to know where everything is on the map so as to not waste ingredients.

Second change I would make is keep the gold you make from selling potions to customers the same as classic (but leave the increased prices in or maybe tone them down to Grandmaster). This means if you can satisfy customers you can actually buy something, instead of being forced to grind for a dozen days just for 1 piece of enchanted paper for your recipe book.

Third change; customers have far more specific and demanding effects, as well as more difficult effects earlier, such as Necromancy. By specific effects I mean a combination of effects such as Strength 2, Rage 2, Swiftness 1 in a single potion as an example, on top of the usual instructions they come with such as including/excluding certain ingredients. This means that each customer is a different challenge. Single effect potions would be rare in this difficulty and every multiple effect potion now has specific effects being demanded.

Wouldn't this be more fun than the way it's currently implemented? And more in line with what the difficulty should be about?
I can agree with that for the most part, but...

Third change; customers have far more specific and demanding effects, as well as more difficult effects earlier, such as Necromancy. By specific effects I mean a combination of effects such as Strength 2, Rage 2, Swiftness 1 in a single potion as an example, on top of the usual instructions they come with such as including/excluding certain ingredients. This means that each customer is a different challenge. Single effect potions would be rare in this difficulty and every multiple effect potion now has specific effects being demanded.
...this would invalidate the new batch brewing mechanic, and its associated perk.

It'd be neat to see it some of the time, but not *every* time.

In general I think that anything that removes part of the game is bad. Like my main complaint in the OP is that part of the game is nullified (ingredient merchants).
Отредактировано rkkn; 8 дек. 2024 г. в 3:34
Another thought: Previously I got most of my challenge from figuring out how to optimally use the ingredients with more complicated paths. The higher difficulties actually remove this challenge since you can only use the basic easy to use ingredients.
After playing some more of Suffering difficulty I can say that it's not as bad as I initially thought. But it is very different.

Автор сообщения: rkkn
...The higher difficulties actually remove this challenge since you can only use the basic easy to use ingredients.

The higher difficulties actually encourage this in a much better way than lower difficulties. If you only played during the start you might be thinking that like I initially did, but as you unlock more seeds to grow a higher variety of plants it becomes really important to have extremely efficient recipes. Since you need to batch brew hundreds of them in order to buy the upgrades.

On Classic difficulty you don't even need the garden, after a while you can profit off of even mark up prices on the most expensive ingredients. In my original save before 2.0 I had several hundreds of each ingredient with over 120k gold in reserve, buying literally everything from the merchants every time they showed up. I focused on crazy efficient recipes because it was fun, but in reality I could get by even with the most inefficient recipes.

There is still the problem of being impractical to buy ingredients from merchants, it'd be good if they introduced a mechanic that improves the price if you complete their quests so that you can eventually afford their inventory even on Suffering difficulty. However that is ultimately inconsequential since the Garden is so strong if used properly.

In regards to what I said previously about customers demanding specific potions, I would only make that a requirement in place of all the "I want a potion with multiple effects" requests. Definitely not every potion, even though earlier I might have said such words, you're right in your original response to my comment, that would have been a stupid thing.

Other than that gold on higher difficulties is purely for buying progression like seeds, alchemy machine, garden expansions etc. If you consider gold as such instead of trying to use it to buy ingredients it's much easier to deal with the higher difficulties.

I'm not so sure it needs much change other than adjusting the price for ingredients. Just try higher difficulties and stick with them for a while, you'll find it's not actually that bad. If anything Classic needs a tune up because if you employ the same strategies you need to get through Suffering on Classic it would feel like you're cheating.
Автор сообщения: Midir
The higher difficulties actually encourage this in a much better way than lower difficulties. If you only played during the start you might be thinking that like I initially did, but as you unlock more seeds to grow a higher variety of plants it becomes really important to have extremely efficient recipes. Since you need to batch brew hundreds of them in order to buy the upgrades.
I'm playing on grandmaster atm. In regards to this, most of my gold (started rolling in it around day 15) comes from having an efficient wild growth recipe for farming the garden, and an extremely efficient stone skin recipe for throwing hundreds of 3 stone skin 2 strength potions at merchants. It was neat making that stone skin recipe back when I made it, getting full use of the dryad saddle, but that was just the one time. It's also the only starter ingredient with a somewhat interesting trajectory
Автор сообщения: Midir
After playing some more of Suffering difficulty I can say that it's not as bad as I initially thought. But it is very different.

Автор сообщения: rkkn
...The higher difficulties actually remove this challenge since you can only use the basic easy to use ingredients.

The higher difficulties actually encourage this in a much better way than lower difficulties. If you only played during the start you might be thinking that like I initially did, but as you unlock more seeds to grow a higher variety of plants it becomes really important to have extremely efficient recipes. Since you need to batch brew hundreds of them in order to buy the upgrades.

On Classic difficulty you don't even need the garden, after a while you can profit off of even mark up prices on the most expensive ingredients. In my original save before 2.0 I had several hundreds of each ingredient with over 120k gold in reserve, buying literally everything from the merchants every time they showed up. I focused on crazy efficient recipes because it was fun, but in reality I could get by even with the most inefficient recipes.

There is still the problem of being impractical to buy ingredients from merchants, it'd be good if they introduced a mechanic that improves the price if you complete their quests so that you can eventually afford their inventory even on Suffering difficulty. However that is ultimately inconsequential since the Garden is so strong if used properly.

In regards to what I said previously about customers demanding specific potions, I would only make that a requirement in place of all the "I want a potion with multiple effects" requests. Definitely not every potion, even though earlier I might have said such words, you're right in your original response to my comment, that would have been a stupid thing.

Other than that gold on higher difficulties is purely for buying progression like seeds, alchemy machine, garden expansions etc. If you consider gold as such instead of trying to use it to buy ingredients it's much easier to deal with the higher difficulties.

I'm not so sure it needs much change other than adjusting the price for ingredients. Just try higher difficulties and stick with them for a while, you'll find it's not actually that bad. If anything Classic needs a tune up because if you employ the same strategies you need to get through Suffering on Classic it would feel like you're cheating.


My issue is that this is not difficult. The game has no loss state. All the higher difficulty does is have customers with specific demands (which is generally good), and completely ruin the pacing by quadrupling the time to progression (which is extremely bad). It's not hard, it's just tedious, and it actively makes the game worse. The Grandmaster difficulty in particular is a monument to wasting your time. I spend multiple days not even throwing an ingredient in the pot because I can just batch brew everything, and 90% of the special requests are "please use an ingredient that is more expensive than the potion", who I promptly show the door.

There's also the issue that the game does not handle multiple effects well. A healing potion that has a frost effect should be a better burn cure than one without. But there's no synergies. The best you get in that regard is the modifier to throw 4 random effects onto the potion as well as the requested one. And that one's really video gamey and makes very little sense in practise.
IMO, the objects you buy/sell should be split in 3 categories:

(1) Ingredients
=> At every level of difficulty, buying ingredient and harvesting them should both be roughly equivalent (with harvesting them being more effective on the long run)
=> This means that either their buying price should not be affected by difficulty level, or the garden should also be nerfed by difficulty level.

(2) Cosmethics that do literally nothing
=> Increasing their price with difficulty is just petty. It just means you won't buy them. But it's not that big of a deal.

(3) Big stuff that advance the story or increase your economy (seeds, garden extension,etc)
=> The price of those should indeed go to the moon at high difficulty. No complaints on that front.

Additionally, on the "selling" part:

(1) When you fully satisfied a customer, you should get paid adequately. As a rough approximation, selling the perfect potion at high difficulty should be the same as selling a crappy potion at low difficulty. But the current selling price for individual customers are way too low.

(2) On the other hand, I have no problem with the fact that selling to merchants is nerfed to the ground at high difficulty.

NOTE: A lot of the complaints of the community could also be solved by adding a "CUSTOM" difficulty level where you can change all the above parameter.
Автор сообщения: rkkn
As it stands, the garden is totally unaffected by difficulty, so it still throws huge quantities of whatever you can grow at you. Meanwhile buying ingredients is totally useless as the prices are terrible.

Thus the main thing raising the difficulty does is force you to focus on your garden, rather than actually feeling harder.

So make the merchant prices a little less brutal and make the garden not give out quite so many free ingredients.
Imo if the prices of the merchants weren't INCREASED (except maybe seeds) and only the sell prices were slashed it might, MIGHT make the herb/shroom merchants worthwhile on higher difficulties as something other than a way to get money out of excess ingredients (bulk brewing potions to sell). Even on normal I find myself drawn to primarily making potions out of basic ingredients I grow myself instead of relying on merchants selling herbs that might be overpriced (though i bought a small handful of crystals as a just in case)
Автор сообщения: Moi Magnus
IMO, the objects you buy/sell should be split in 3 categories:

*snip*
I think you've got the right of it. Ingredient buying vs gardening should be about equivalent on all difficulty settings. Big ticket advancements being hard to buy on higher difficulty is good. And selling potions to merchants being greatly weakened on higher difficulty is also good.

So splitting the price multipliers is a great way to do this.

So my suggestion is:
Separate ingredient prices from other prices.
Leave the "other prices" as they currently are. (ie leave it as 0.25 in grandmaster and 0.1 in suffering)
but adjust the ingredient prices, and also adjust the number of ingredients gained from the garden. Garden harvesting even already has a multiplier, but it's only used for Explorer mode atm. So this is just a numbers change too.

Grandmaster:
Ingredient price: 0.25x -> 0.5x
Garden harvest yield: 1.0x -> 0.5x

Suffering:
Ingredient price: 0.1x -> 0.25x
Garden harvest yield: 1.0x -> 0.5x
Garden regrowth speed: 1.0x -> 0.5x (1 day to regrow after harvesting -> 2 days to regrow)

leaving the quantity multiplier at 0.5x on suffering cuz otherwise the numbers get weird, resulting in some perks doing nothing after rounding.

Optionally also separate out cosmetics and leave those at 1.0x price on all difficulties.


Now, price for customer requested potions is something I'm not sure about. It should probably? go up a little bit on the higher difficulties, but I don't have much opinion.
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