On historical accuracy

[Jacket]

I haven't beaten the game yet and I will be mentioning spoilers all around till basically near the end of act three but there's a lot that irks me which they must know better than not to add because of the historical accuracy that is in the game. So I'll just make a list of my grievances I may write out a review but I'm just curious if I'm alone in this or not:

1. The representative from Ethiopia for some reason spending time in Bavaria? I know it's explained in game and I know Tassing is fictitious, but an Ethiopian representative would more than likely go to more important churches or perhaps just stay in Rome. I can't think of any other reason but just a shout out they exist and to make at people look at representations of black Jesus. (Not all of their icons depict him as black)

2. The strange cuckolding scenario in act II, I'm not saying nobody cheated, but the idea after confronting a man about it and him being okay with it is just highly unusual. A lot of writers struggle depicting morals and others actions in the past I get this but in the HRE during this time she would be punished with the lightest punishment being some kind of penance to the harshest torture or death. Just his reaction to it as well seems like an out there modern attitude that seems totally out of place. I can't tell if it's just hyper-cynicism or a fetish ruining the writing but this didn't need to be in the story lol

3. Vácslav is more believable than Sebhat but I didn't realize he was a ♥♥♥♥♥ at first and thought he was their depiction of a moor since they made him darker than Sebhat. My only real problem with him is he's apart of a made up Gnostic sect that I don't know if it'd even survive. Closest thing I could compare him to is a Cathar or Sethian which wouldn't make sense to depict him as either since ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ have their own traditions and religious beliefs.

4. The pagan ways somehow surviving into the 16th century? I understand a lot of cultures had syncretism and this is probably one of the fictitious parts but this was in Bavaria. The game even tells you it's been a Christian settlement since Rome. Surely an inquisitor would've been sent before Ill Peter or Ottilia. This didn't bother me as bad I just find their interpretation of folklore strange and the whole thing a bit inconsistent.

Really there's a lot more and there's a lot I do like about the game with it's references to many things throughout history. I love the mystery so far and I'm nearly done with the game but I feel like this game has an Identity issue because of these problems. It wants to be this beautiful love letter to the past history and even the harsh reality of it but a loaded political world view is put on top of it.

EDIT: To clarify I don't believe there was 0 reference to paganism in Europe. Re-reading what I wrote I don't understand why that needs to be said but I will restate that. I find it odd how the older people in the village and conditionally Ursula hold very dualistic beliefs that would be abnormal. I also want to make it clear this is probably the thing that bothers me the least in this but the issue is like what I say below in tandem with everything else.

The bottom line is just because something is possible doesn't make it probable. Now hold onto that because just because it is possible doesn't mean it's a good way to represent a time and place or something historically accurate without caveats. I find it fallacious to treat this as accurate just because it could happen rarely. I find it far closer to bending the truth then showing a period authentically. I'm aware this is a fictional narrative but this game took great effort to be historically accurate in so many areas they must be aware of what I'm stating. If I'm wrong about them being aware of it then I'm wrong but that would be odd too.

EDIT 2:

Just because an outlier exists doesn't make it probable.

If you actually cared about Sebhat being represented so badly, you should care Vácslav's culture isn't even present in his characterization and instead is a reference to The Cheese and the Worms. (If you think this is me saying he should be a thief you need therapy)

[NeeLot]

Originally posted by Jacket:

1. The representative from Ethiopia for some reason spending time in Bavaria? I know it's explained in game and I know Tassing is fictitious, but an Ethiopian representative would more than likely go to more important churches or perhaps just stay in Rome. I can't think of any other reason but just a shout out they exist and to make at people look at representations of black Jesus. (Not all of their icons depict him as black)

An unlikely scenario doesn't mean a historically inaccurate scenario.

Originally posted by Jacket:

2. The strange cuckolding scenario in act II, I'm not saying nobody cheated, but the idea after confronting a man about it and him being okay with it is just highly unusual. A lot of writers struggle depicting morals and others actions in the past I get this but in the HRE during this time she would be punished with the lightest punishment being some kind of penance to the harshest torture or death. Just his reaction to it as well seems like an out there modern attitude that seems totally out of place. I can't tell if it's just hyper-cynicism or a fetish ruining the writing but this didn't need to be in the story lol

Again an unlikely scenario doesn't mean a historically inaccurate scenario. People aren't walking statistics and averages.

Originally posted by Jacket:

3. Vácslav is more believable than Sebhat but I didn't realize he was a ♥♥♥♥♥ at first and thought he was their depiction of a moor since they made him darker than Sebhat. My only real problem with him is he's apart of a made up Gnostic sect that I don't know if it'd even survive. Closest thing I could compare him to is a Cathar or Sethian which wouldn't make sense to depict him as either since ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ have their own traditions and religious beliefs.

He was a what? Did you sneak in a slur in there? Either way, I recommend reading The Cheese and the Worms by Carlo Ginzburg. It provides a historical account of an Italian miller Menocchio which likely served as an inspiration for Vacslav's beliefs. Also most Romani follow religious beliefs of country they inhabit.

Originally posted by Jacket:

4. The pagan ways somehow surviving into the 16th century? I understand a lot of cultures had syncretism and this is probably one of the fictitious parts but this was in Bavaria. The game even tells you it's been a Christian settlement since Rome. Surely an inquisitor would've been sent before Ill Peter or Ottilia. This didn't bother me as bad I just find their interpretation of folklore strange and the whole thing a bit inconsistent.

Well, I'm not too good with Germanic pagan traditions, but I am Polish and aware that many pagan rituals and beliefs have survived in my homeland to this day. As a child I participated in drowning of Marzanna, which is explicitly a pagan tradition, no Christianity involved.

Would you mind explaining the "political world view" though?

[Jacket]

Originally posted by NeeLot:

Originally posted by Jacket:

1. The representative from Ethiopia for some reason spending time in Bavaria? I know it's explained in game and I know Tassing is fictitious, but an Ethiopian representative would more than likely go to more important churches or perhaps just stay in Rome. I can't think of any other reason but just a shout out they exist and to make at people look at representations of black Jesus. (Not all of their icons depict him as black)

An unlikely scenario doesn't mean a historically inaccurate scenario.

Originally posted by Jacket:

2. The strange cuckolding scenario in act II, I'm not saying nobody cheated, but the idea after confronting a man about it and him being okay with it is just highly unusual. A lot of writers struggle depicting morals and others actions in the past I get this but in the HRE during this time she would be punished with the lightest punishment being some kind of penance to the harshest torture or death. Just his reaction to it as well seems like an out there modern attitude that seems totally out of place. I can't tell if it's just hyper-cynicism or a fetish ruining the writing but this didn't need to be in the story lol

Again an unlikely scenario doesn't mean a historically inaccurate scenario. People aren't walking statistics and averages.

Originally posted by Jacket:

3. Vácslav is more believable than Sebhat but I didn't realize he was a ♥♥♥♥♥ at first and thought he was their depiction of a moor since they made him darker than Sebhat. My only real problem with him is he's apart of a made up Gnostic sect that I don't know if it'd even survive. Closest thing I could compare him to is a Cathar or Sethian which wouldn't make sense to depict him as either since ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ have their own traditions and religious beliefs.

He was a what? Did you sneak in a slur in there? Either way, I recommend reading The Cheese and the Worms by Carlo Ginzburg. It provides a historical account of an Italian miller Menocchio which likely served as an inspiration for Vacslav's beliefs. Also most Romani follow religious beliefs of country they inhabit.

Originally posted by Jacket:

4. The pagan ways somehow surviving into the 16th century? I understand a lot of cultures had syncretism and this is probably one of the fictitious parts but this was in Bavaria. The game even tells you it's been a Christian settlement since Rome. Surely an inquisitor would've been sent before Ill Peter or Ottilia. This didn't bother me as bad I just find their interpretation of folklore strange and the whole thing a bit inconsistent.

Well, I'm not too good with Germanic pagan traditions, but I am Polish and aware that many pagan rituals and beliefs have survived in my homeland to this day. As a child I participated in drowning of Marzanna, which is explicitly a pagan tradition, no Christianity involved.

Would you mind explaining the "political world view" though?

Your first point is really illogical. It's not only unlikely, it never happened. With your second point tied within the first it's just bad taste. It's not really something I enjoy seeing shoehorn in for the sake of it in of itself. I would rather the game kept its high quality standard. It feels way more like contemporary political messaging or at the very least a strange fetish put into the game.

Steam for some reason censors another word for Romani for reasons I don't know why it's not a slur to begin with. Further with your third point I'll give the book a shot but it's just a strange thing to put for a character like that especially when they could've introduced their folk beliefs and takes on Christianity which are already unique. Sure they adopt Christianity but they have their own syncretism.

I should be more clear characters like Ill Peter and the old woman I'm blanking on her name don't make sense, they hold an entirely syncretic belief system that would've been under the scrutiny of an inquisitor especially since abbey is aware of both of them. This doesn't bother me as bad but it's just strange for the time frame.

The political world view part is just the strange cynicism that pops up out of place like the cuckolding. It legitimately feels like I'm being spoonfed everyone was just as ♥♥♥♥♥♥ as me or some kind of ideology. A part that contributes to this is the abortion part with Zdnea where there's little moral qualms about it from either character. I'm aware nuns could know how to abort a child because of literature back then but there's no conflict of interest and not even something Andreas can do anything about in a reaction. They force you to be okay with it which is stupid. When I step into the shoes of someone who could write like this ontop of it, it feels extremely contradictory to begin with. It's clearly not by accident they added these questionable things and is more of a sign of the times in my opinion and ending up botching the authenticity they would've had. It leaves a very bitter taste over something that's phenomenonal and I think that's the worse part about it. Obsidian has this sort of track record recently with their writing too in Tyranny and Outer Worlds but it was so contrasted this time.

[NeeLot]

Originally posted by Jacket:

Your first point is really illogical. It's not only unlikely, it never happened.

Yeah, the entire game is in fact fictional. Doesn't change the fact that it would be plausible even if unlikely for an Ethiopian missionary to take a trip north from Rome if he took an interest in a small alpine abbey, especially one that keeps a saint based on Saint Maurice as their patron.

Originally posted by Jacket:

With your second point tied within the first it's just bad taste. It's not really something I enjoy seeing shoehorn in for the sake of it in of itself. I would rather the game kept its high quality standard. It feels way more like contemporary political messaging or at the very least a strange fetish put into the game.

It's not shoehorned for the sake of itself. You're just mad that it's there. If you keep investigating, you discover that Hanna is a consistently horrible person who is definitetely the abuser in her marriage and Niko while aware of his wife's numerous flaws is desperate to keep his marriage in one piece and the mother of his child to not die. Like it's funny that you only take into consideration Hanna's cheating on her husband and not Lenhardt's cheating on his wife.

Originally posted by Jacket:

Steam for some reason censors another word for Romani for reasons I don't know why it's not a slur to begin with. Further with your third point I'll give the book a shot but it's just a strange thing to put for a character like that especially when they could've introduced their folk beliefs and takes on Christianity which are already unique. Sure they adopt Christianity but they have their own syncretism.

I know the reason. It's a slur that is commonly used in a derogatory way and Valve is very much aware of that. Also do you want me to tap "People aren't walking statistics and averages" sign again?

Originally posted by Jacket:

I should be more clear characters like Ill Peter and the old woman I'm blanking on her name don't make sense, they hold an entirely syncretic belief system that would've been under the scrutiny of an inquisitor especially since abbey is aware of both of them. This doesn't bother me as bad but it's just strange for the time frame.

Well I did bother to check and there are in fact historical accounts of people celebrating Perchtenlauf in 16th century. Also, have you played Witcher 3? Do you know that Forefather's Eve quest is actually based on a real Slavic pagan ritual that has been consistently practiced up until 19th century (today it's mostly revivalist) and involved a very unchristian practice of summoning ghosts practiced by a very Christian population and was in fact actively suppressed by the Church authorities for centuries? The Drowning of Marzanna has also been historically banned. Ill Peter and Ottilia Kamperyn keep their old pagan beliefs together with their Christianity because that's something that very much happened in real life as exemplified by continued pagan traditions and depending on your choices you can see it being passed to Ursula in the game.

Originally posted by Jacket:

The political world view part is just the strange cynicism that pops up out of place like the cuckolding. It legitimately feels like I'm being spoonfed everyone was just as ♥♥♥♥♥♥ as me or some kind of ideology. A part that contributes to this is the abortion part with Zdnea where there's little moral qualms about it from either character. I'm aware nuns could know how to abort a child because of literature back then but there's no conflict of interest and not even something Andreas can do anything about in a reaction. They force you to be okay with it which is stupid. When I step into the shoes of someone who could write like this ontop of it, it feels extremely contradictory to begin with. It's clearly not by accident they added these questionable things and is more of a sign of the times in my opinion and ending up botching the authenticity they would've had. It leaves a very bitter taste over something that's phenomenonal and I think that's the worse part about it. Obsidian has this sort of track record recently with their writing too in Tyranny and Outer Worlds but it was so contrasted this time.

Please, I would love for you to explain the political ideology of adultery existing in fiction for me.

Did you want Andreas or Zdena to just go to authorities for their criminal acts or what? Andreas is married by Act 2 and Zdena I assume plans on continuing to live a relatively peaceful life.

But I'm gonna let you in on a secret. Any piece of media is usually representative of its time. A game made today is not required to endorse or actively promote most commonly held views of the time period where the piece of media is set. It would be entirely possible for Andreas to not question morality of Zdena having an abortion (as you recognized yourself, people had abortions back then) so Josh Sawyer wrote him this way. If you wanted a dialogue option that would allow you to condemn Zdena, that's another matter, but as you may have noticed by playing the game, you do not get to pick every single thing that Andreas thinks or says. Where's the contradiction?

[Jacket]

Originally posted by NeeLot:

Yeah, the entire game is in fact fictional. Doesn't change the fact that it would be plausible even if unlikely for an Ethiopian missionary to take a trip north from Rome if he took an interest in a small alpine abbey, especially one that keeps a saint based on Saint Maurice as their patron.

Not my point, if this was all it was and not the later stuff I probably wouldn't even have an issue. This is one of the only historical games like this that has these issues, KcD, Sir Bronte, or really any other game I can think of in this historical theme/style somehow manages to not do exactly what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

It's not shoehorned for the sake of itself. You're just mad that it's there. If you keep investigating, you discover that Hanna is a consistently horrible person who is definitetely the abuser in her marriage and Niko while aware of his wife's numerous flaws is desperate to keep his marriage in one piece and the mother of his child to not die. Like it's funny that you only take into consideration Hanna's cheating on her husband and not Lenhardt's cheating on his wife.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I think this might be some of the worse taste stuff in that part I've ever read in a video game, what really brings it out is the contrast in quality in the same chapter. My main issue is the husband knows and isn't going to do anything about it which is just a very contemporary response. It's the same thing with the reaction to abortion. The game at least lets you go after the both of them, but that really isn't my criticism it's just stylistically disgusting to me to even shoehorn that in. It didn't have to be in the game to make the game compelling, it's just a delicate cynical world view. Sure people cheated, but people were also punished for that back then too.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

I know the reason. It's a slur that is commonly used in a derogatory way and Valve is very much aware of that. Also do you want me to tap "People aren't walking statistics and averages" sign again?

You can point at the sign all you want I don't really think you grasp what that stuff implies. Really I don't see a point of you arguing this you should just agree to disagree that point. Especially since they could've showed us something unique and make sense at the same time. Somehow I don't think everyone is trying to call them a 'slur' either when they refer to them as that. Especially when they call themselves that too, which isn't some weird "reclaiming" thing a lot of people aren't caught up to enforced sensibilities around the world or differ in opinion.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

Well I did bother to check and there are in fact historical accounts of people celebrating Perchtenlauf in 16th century. Also, have you played Witcher 3? Do you know that Forefather's Eve quest is actually based on a real Slavic pagan ritual that has been consistently practiced up until 19th century (today it's mostly revivalist) and involved a very unchristian practice of summoning ghosts practiced by a very Christian population and was in fact actively suppressed by the Church authorities for centuries? The Drowning of Marzanna has also been historically banned. Ill Peter and Ottilia Kamperyn keep their old pagan beliefs together with their Christianity because that's something that very much happened in real life as exemplified by continued pagan traditions and depending on your choices you can see it being passed to Ursula in the game.

I'm not talking about Perchtenlauf, I'm talking about them bringing up the wild hunt directly for example. Most of the other villagers scoff at that stuff and just believe a more christian retooled version while the really old people hold almost dualistic beliefs. Yeah I saw it happen to Ursula in mine, I mean that can make sense for Poland in specific. It'd just make more sense for someone to try to be protestant at all or consider it more among the villagers in Bavaria than just have people knowing a lot about local myths. I'm also not a fan of the universalist message it holds that all three things are basically the same story either that ties into the contemporary messaging. Really stupid stuff like the 'Zeitgeist' documentary push that sort of thing and it removes context from every single culture it attempts to look at.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

Please, I would love for you to explain the political ideology of adultery existing in fiction for me.

Did you want Andreas or Zdena to just go to authorities for their criminal acts or what? Andreas is married by Act 2 and Zdena I assume plans on continuing to live a relatively peaceful life.

But I'm gonna let you in on a secret. Any piece of media is usually representative of its time. A game made today is not required to endorse or actively promote most commonly held views of the time period where the piece of media is set. It would be entirely possible for Andreas to not question morality of Zdena having an abortion (as you recognized yourself, people had abortions back then) so Josh Sawyer wrote him this way. If you wanted a dialogue option that would allow you to condemn Zdena, that's another matter, but as you may have noticed by playing the game, you do not get to pick every single thing that Andreas thinks or says. Where's the contradiction?

I mean sexual liberalism? If it was in the modern era I wouldn't be surprised if people from Cali just made them an open relationship lol? I don't know if you're being dense on purpose or trying to tactfully pull something out of me but it's definitely not ridiculous pointing out stuff like this. I think Andreas should've had that opportunity to report her, or at least grieve. You don't even think of the child who could've been when he's grieving for the child he lost. It just makes no sense to even have that in the game, clearly Andreas would be sensitive to that sort of thing. Also I know most art is representative to it's time, the problem is when they try to insert modern sensibilities knowingly. I would have to assume knowingly because this game actually does have great nuance elsewhere. It isn't a great story beat or something smart to shoehorn in abortion and act like psychopaths about it. Sure maybe Zdena is a psychopath but that really isn't good writing either. Women normally don't just treat this thing so nonchalantly it reads almost like an incel take on women's sensibilities. Sure it's also possible for him to not question anything but it doesn't make sense given his other positions on the matter or if you took theologian. You could've encouraged her to leave, or became financially responsible for her. If you don't see his grieving and how he treats Caspar as a son, (abusively or kindly is your choice) then I don't know what to tell you, it literally doesn't even make sense internally for Andreas to act like that.

[NeeLot]

Originally posted by Jacket:

Not my point, if this was all it was and not the later stuff I probably wouldn't even have an issue. This is one of the only historical games like this that has these issues, KcD, Sir Bronte, or really any other game I can think of in this historical theme/style somehow manages to not do exactly what I'm talking about.

KCD has you swear vengeance against a man who has been verifiably dead for quite a while and appears to still be alive not only in the first game (duh) but also in the sequel and also the game perpetuates the medieval myth of all millers being criminals. Bet I could pull up more stuff I felt like replaying the game. Weird that you seem to be drawing a line at black people who as I got reminded have been on the record to have reached the elusive land of Germany to attend the Council of Constance a century prior.

Originally posted by Jacket:

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I think this might be some of the worse taste stuff in that part I've ever read in a video game, what really brings it out is the contrast in quality in the same chapter. My main issue is the husband knows and isn't going to do anything about it which is just a very contemporary response. It's the same thing with the reaction to abortion. The game at least lets you go after the both of them, but that really isn't my criticism it's just stylistically disgusting to me to even shoehorn that in. It didn't have to be in the game to make the game compelling, it's just a delicate cynical world view. Sure people cheated, but people were also punished for that back then too.

Disagree on what? Niko is a sad man in an abusive relationship who desperately wants to keep his marriage and family from falling apart. The game doesn't tell you that it's actually okay for him to live like that. In fact both Hanna and Lenhardt are both presented to be pretty bad people. Again, tapping the "people aren't walking statistics and averages" sign. You clearly have an idea of how literally every single person of that time period should behave in a certain situation and it's not only wrong, it would make the story worse.

Originally posted by Jacket:

You can point at the sign all you want I don't really think you grasp what that stuff implies. Really I don't see a point of you arguing this you should just agree to disagree that point. Especially since they could've showed us something unique and make sense at the same time. Somehow I don't think everyone is trying to call them a 'slur' either when they refer to them as that. Especially when they call themselves that too, which isn't some weird "reclaiming" thing a lot of people aren't caught up to enforced sensibilities around the world or differ in opinion.

Alright, now I'm almost certain you wouldn't exactly stop yourself from saying the n-word either.

I see you seem to believe that making Vacslav into more of a stereotypical Romani would make his character more unique as opposed to him being (as far as I'm aware) the only character in fiction inspired by Menocchio. Cool...

Originally posted by Jacket:

I'm not talking about Perchtenlauf, I'm talking about them bringing up the wild hunt directly for example. Most of the other villagers scoff at that stuff and just believe a more christian retooled version while the really old people hold almost dualistic beliefs. Yeah I saw it happen to Ursula in mine, I mean that can make sense for Poland in specific. It'd just make more sense for someone to try to be protestant at all or consider it more among the villagers in Bavaria than just have people knowing a lot about local myths. I'm also not a fan of the universalist message it holds that all three things are basically the same story either that ties into the contemporary messaging. Really stupid stuff like the 'Zeitgeist' documentary push that sort of thing and it removes context from every single culture it attempts to look at.

I have a question for you to ponder on. How do you think we possess any amount of knowledge of Perchta or Wild Hunt today? Did the clergy keep any records of old pagan traditions or was it perhaps passed on in some way like this highly unorthodox idea of an oral tradition? Ya think brothers Grimm found it in a cave somewhere?

Anyway I love learning, so please tell what makes Poland special in keeping its pagan roots. Was personally under impression that modern knowledge of Slavic paganism is actually significantly worse than that of Germanic.

Originally posted by Jacket:

I mean sexual liberalism? If it was in the modern era I wouldn't be surprised if people from Cali just made them an open relationship lol? I don't know if you're being dense on purpose or trying to tactfully pull something out of me but it's definitely not ridiculous pointing out stuff like this. I think Andreas should've had that opportunity to report her, or at least grieve. You don't even think of the child who could've been when he's grieving for the child he lost. It just makes no sense to even have that in the game, clearly Andreas would be sensitive to that sort of thing. Also I know most art is representative to it's time, the problem is when they try to insert modern sensibilities knowingly. I would have to assume knowingly because this game actually does have great nuance elsewhere. It isn't a great story beat or something smart to shoehorn in abortion and act like psychopaths about it. Sure maybe Zdena is a psychopath but that really isn't good writing either. Women normally don't just treat this thing so nonchalantly it reads almost like an incel take on women's sensibilities. Sure it's also possible for him to not question anything but it doesn't make sense given his other positions on the matter or if you took theologian. You could've encouraged her to leave, or became financially responsible for her. If you don't see his grieving and how he treats Caspar as a son, (abusively or kindly is your choice) then I don't know what to tell you, it literally doesn't even make sense internally for Andreas to act like that.

A reminder that Act 2 takes place over 7 years after Act 1, just to provide some perspective. I would assume Zdena didn't treat her abortion nonchalantly when she was receiving it, but it's not something we get to witness. Either way you seem to be doing some contemporary world view yourself and applying the idea that life begins at conception was generally accepted in early modern period instead of it beginning at ensoulment, quickening, when the fetus starts moving so usually a couple of months into the pregnancy. Terminating pregnancy while generally shunned upon by the Church was not viewed as murder if done before ensoulment. You describe characters acting like psychopaths about, I assume because you yourself find abortion to be morally reprehensible, but seem to fail to recognize that fact that since it has been performed for thousands of years, it was obviosuly not universally viewed as a moral wrong. Again, you have an idea that in a specific time period every single person should behave how you imagine them all to behave, although I feel it's more not for the historical accuracy concerns, but because those topics make you feel uncomfortable.

Anyway do you also want an option to report brother Rudeger and Mathieu for their homosexual acts?

Also, obviously I haven't worked on the game, only played it so let me drop its own director and lead writer discussing philosophy behind it:
https://youtu.be/mhZcNA16m8A

[Jacket]

Originally posted by NeeLot:

KCD has you swear vengeance against a man who has been verifiably dead for quite a while and appears to still be alive not only in the first game (duh) but also in the sequel and also the game perpetuates the medieval myth of all millers being criminals. Bet I could pull up more stuff I felt like replaying the game. Weird that you seem to be drawing a line at black people who as I got reminded have been on the record to have reached the elusive land of Germany to attend the Council of Constance a century prior.

I'm not really seeing your point here. Tassing isn't even real, Pentiment takes a lot of liberties that don't bother me. I don't think KCD is stating every single miller is a thief either it's just a gameifying history. It's not like Pentiment made the Miller a likable guy either lol. If the game had the Council of Constance I wouldn't have an issue but it doesn't make sense to include them in something about European History especially in the 15th century. I'm aware (extremely few) Sub-Saharan Africans went there during that era and before. It wasn't a business back then to get people across the Mediterranean like it is today. It's just modern identity politics sullying the quality in bad taste yet again. You shouldn't be okay with this kind of thing either it's not just "inclusive" but a prescription of a worldview that has never existed. I don't like this stuff when you get British dramas recasting historical figures as black people either, it's bad taste and it acts like you can't tell an authentic story with black people. I recommend a book to you, Sufferings in Africa, because it shows how hard it actually was for most to travel across the continent to even get to and back from the north.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

Disagree on what? Niko is a sad man in an abusive relationship who desperately wants to keep his marriage and family from falling apart. The game doesn't tell you that it's actually okay for him to live like that. In fact both Hanna and Lenhardt are both presented to be pretty bad people. Again, tapping the "people aren't walking statistics and averages" sign. You clearly have an idea of how literally every single person of that time period should behave in a certain situation and it's not only wrong, it would make the story worse.

You're shutting down heavily to the fact I find it bad quality and I will double down on that this game didn't need this subplot for it to be good and actively makes it worse than it could've been. It's unrealistic hyper-pessimism, and I think the creator did a bad job not keeping his sensibilities and worldview out of it. I feel like you're redirecting my criticism of the creator back at me with what you're saying which is rich. I have a genuinely hard time grasping how something like this wouldn't take you out of it or just something out of a weirdo left-field. If there were more ways you could react to this instead of trying to impose a delicate world view I wouldn't have an issue. I'm not claiming they were all good moral people but I don't see what's the point of depicting the unlikely in this time frame either, especially when it's advertised as accurate. This is why I said it's probably better to agree we disagree on the quality of this, because the nuance of probability is lost on you. The fact we agree it's improbable hurts my suspension of disbelief in this context combined with the pessimism.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

Alright, now I'm almost certain you wouldn't exactly stop yourself from saying the n-word either.

I see you seem to believe that making Vacslav into more of a stereotypical Romani would make his character more unique as opposed to him being (as far as I'm aware) the only character in fiction inspired by Menocchio. Cool...

I mean they could've just made a better inspiration of Menocchio too, from what I've read and compared it's a loose inspiration of just more random gnostic nonsense added onto it. I just don't know why you'd represent the one Romani character that way either. I also don't see the issue in showing the Romani's unique beliefs. Whatever you think I'm saying is just you misconstruing me and making a straw-man.
https://youtu.be/Zlg9qK_EkNA

Here's an example of one who just talks about the current folk-beliefs that I imagine descend or are derivative of for centuries. What I do know they could've had fortune telling, their obsession on luck, or even however they vary regionally. It's not like these people aren't unique already.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

I have a question for you to ponder on. How do you think we possess any amount of knowledge of Perchta or Wild Hunt today? Did the clergy keep any records of old pagan traditions or was it perhaps passed on in some way like this highly unorthodox idea of an oral tradition? Ya think brothers Grimm found it in a cave somewhere?

Anyway I love learning, so please tell what makes Poland special in keeping its pagan roots. Was personally under impression that modern knowledge of Slavic paganism is actually significantly worse than that of Germanic.

We consume it entirely differently than they permitted definitely, it's like you forget the enlightenment happened in this carefully constructed question. I'm not okay with the idea of just assuming either everywhere had a strong oral tradition that was 100% preserved or some garbage. Like you said we don't know a lot about Slavic paganism because of this. What you're talking about also depends per region and area, because sometimes they did just destroy everything or make it so syncretic it's hard to tell like Irish-folk lore. I kind of doubt the original pagan Irish believed the daughter of Noah came on a boat to create the Irish people. Also I said that *could* make sense for Poland I don't know enough about polish culture to verify what you're saying on it. It only makes somewhat sense to me geographically that it could happen since even Ireland had insular Christianity and it took time to convert all of Scandinavia as well. What you're bringing up is also hard to verify on just how common it even was so it's a pretty hearsay argument to begin with.

I think you're fundamentally not understanding what I'm getting at either, the church bottom line wouldn't be okay with people like the game lets you know they know about like Ill peter, Ursula (optionally), or Ottilla. They're both known by multiple priests to harbor these opinions during a time where people weren't tolerant of such things like in the modern era. The game even makes a dialogue of this and they end up dying anyways so it's still a very odd inclusion. I will restate again this wouldn't bother me if it wasn't all added up.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

A reminder that Act 2 takes place over 7 years after Act 1, just to provide some perspective. I would assume Zdena didn't treat her abortion nonchalantly when she was receiving it, but it's not something we get to witness. Either way you seem to be doing some contemporary world view yourself and applying the idea that life begins at conception was generally accepted in early modern period instead of it beginning at ensoulment, quickening, when the fetus starts moving so usually a couple of months into the pregnancy. Terminating pregnancy while generally shunned upon by the Church was not viewed as murder if done before ensoulment. You describe characters acting like psychopaths about, I assume because you yourself find abortion to be morally reprehensible, but seem to fail to recognize that fact that since it has been performed for thousands of years, it was obviosuly not universally viewed as a moral wrong. Again, you have an idea that in a specific time period every single person should behave how you imagine them all to behave, although I feel it's more not for the historical accuracy concerns, but because those topics make you feel uncomfortable.

Very long winded no u, I mean the church actually did address this because nuns did receive abortions in some amount. I assume we're limiting our definitions to just Europe because this isn't a cross cultural belief exactly in Europe either. It really doesn't matter what you or me feel about it, it's just bad characterization. I think attacking me like you are right now is more of a bad faith tactic than it is actually engaging with what I'm saying. Also it's not obvious it wasn't found as a "moral wrong" and would be something very rare to begin with. You're just imposing your beliefs on it now while accusing me of doing the same.

Also it is psychopathic to just abort something and then act like it's no big deal to someone else. I'm glad you didn't dare try to argue the contradiction I pointed out with Andreas and the children in his life either. If you think this is normal you need to interact with women in the real world or even talk to a woman who has had an abortion. Perhaps it's just a case of bad male writing about women but it's just uncanny.

What you're saying is beyond disingenuous however and theologians have compared it to sacrificing children to Canaanite gods. The only way you can get around this is if you twist what conception means, this has only changed in modern terms because we understand how far the process is and people started arguing a zygote isn't conception meanwhile it's the literal first brief stage of human person hood.

Here's a source from around that time they did respond to this and it makes sense with their theological beliefs. This isn't some contemporary thing I'm saying either actually. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12178868/

Originally posted by NeeLot:

Anyway do you also want an option to report brother Rudeger and Mathieu for their homosexual acts?

Yeah player agency is a good thing. I get they had to cut stuff for cost but it's convenient how you can't do anything like that like a specific contemporary world view would be mad about. The fact you can point out an example I didn't show, shows me you understand what I'm saying in the very least. This instance also shows you can tell what I mean without nasty polemics you're trying to use.

[NeeLot]

Originally posted by Jacket:

I'm not really seeing your point here. Tassing isn't even real, Pentiment takes a lot of liberties that don't bother me. I don't think KCD is stating every single miller is a thief either it's just a gameifying history. It's not like Pentiment made the Miller a likable guy either lol. If the game had the Council of Constance I wouldn't have an issue but it doesn't make sense to include them in something about European History especially in the 15th century. I'm aware (extremely few) Sub-Saharan Africans went there during that era and before. It wasn't a business back then to get people across the Mediterranean like it is today. It's just modern identity politics sullying the quality in bad taste yet again. You shouldn't be okay with this kind of thing either it's not just "inclusive" but a prescription of a worldview that has never existed. I don't like this stuff when you get British dramas recasting historical figures as black people either, it's bad taste and it acts like you can't tell an authentic story with black people. I recommend a book to you, Sufferings in Africa, because it shows how hard it actually was for most to travel across the continent to even get to and back from the north.

I see you seem to be avoiding the "Walking, talking corpse has killed your parents" part of KCD.

Once again, unable to differentiate between a single individual and a whole group, you fail to grasp that there might in fact be a difference between presenting a single individual miller as a bad person and every single miller in that piece of fiction. Also you know that Lenhardt's son Paul takes over his father's mill after Act 2, right?

And so we have reached that point where you're not just complaining about the relatively inprobable (not impossible) scenario and have achieved you being confidently wrong. My congratulations. During the game's timeframe while as far as I'm aware there aren't any records of Ethiopians crossing Alps (can't be too sure though), we do in fact know that there were planty of them coming through Mediterranean. We know that Ethiopia maintained diplomatic relationship with states like Venice, Aragon and Portugal, we know that there have been entire communities of them in Rome to the point where we have a painting of pope Paul III granting Regimini militantis Ecclesiae to newly founded Jesuit order with his Ethiopian advisor standing right behind him. There's been an Ethiopian Catholic Church (Santo Stefano degli Abissini) in Rome back then (restored by Sixtus IV in late 15th century) and it stands to this day. Why should I even bother responding to you? You clearly have no idea what you're writing about. Previously I would be kind enough to assume you've made an honest mistake getting the century during which the game's is set wrong, just a simple typo. I'm putting that into question now.

Originally posted by Jacket:

You're shutting down heavily to the fact I find it bad quality and I will double down on that this game didn't need this subplot for it to be good and actively makes it worse than it could've been. It's unrealistic hyper-pessimism, and I think the creator did a bad job not keeping his sensibilities and worldview out of it. I feel like you're redirecting my criticism of the creator back at me with what you're saying which is rich. I have a genuinely hard time grasping how something like this wouldn't take you out of it or just something out of a weirdo left-field. If there were more ways you could react to this instead of trying to impose a delicate world view I wouldn't have an issue. I'm not claiming they were all good moral people but I don't see what's the point of depicting the unlikely in this time frame either, especially when it's advertised as accurate. This is why I said it's probably better to agree we disagree on the quality of this, because the nuance of probability is lost on you. The fact we agree it's improbable hurts my suspension of disbelief in this context combined with the pessimism.

I'm sorry could you please explain to me what kind of ideology and sensibilities lead to portrayal of adultery in media? I really see that you keep struggling with the fact just because is unlikely to happen, doesn't mean that it cannot happen, that (and I'm writing that again) characters do not need to be written to fit how you imagine them all to behave, and I feel like we have already your idea of early modern Europe is definitely more based in imagination that in historical sources. But I recognize that it troubles your deeply, no idea why specifically, maybe you have personal reasons for that, but I don't know and I don't care for it.

Originally posted by Jacket:

I mean they could've just made a better inspiration of Menocchio too, from what I've read and compared it's a loose inspiration of just more random gnostic nonsense added onto it. I just don't know why you'd represent the one Romani character that way either. I also don't see the issue in showing the Romani's unique beliefs. Whatever you think I'm saying is just you misconstruing me and making a straw-man.
https://youtu.be/Zlg9qK_EkNA

Here's an example of one who just talks about the current folk-beliefs that I imagine descend or are derivative of for centuries. What I do know they could've had fortune telling, their obsession on luck, or even however they vary regionally. It's not like these people aren't unique already.

There's this thing that you consistently keep failing to recognize. Vacslav is not the Romani people. Vacslav is Vacslav, a single character, written not to be how you imagine every single Romani to be and I recognize that it visibly disturbs you to witness a character not being written in a way you imagine all people within a certain group to be (it happened multiple times already), but I hope that you will eventually recognize that's it's a failure on your part. I mean you probably won't, but you know... I can still hope.

Originally posted by Jacket:

We consume it entirely differently than they permitted definitely, it's like you forget the enlightenment happened in this carefully constructed question. I'm not okay with the idea of just assuming either everywhere had a strong oral tradition that was 100% preserved or some garbage. Like you said we don't know a lot about Slavic paganism because of this. What you're talking about also depends per region and area, because sometimes they did just destroy everything or make it so syncretic it's hard to tell like Irish-folk lore. I kind of doubt the original pagan Irish believed the daughter of Noah came on a boat to create the Irish people. Also I said that *could* make sense for Poland I don't know enough about polish culture to verify what you're saying on it. It only makes somewhat sense to me geographically that it could happen since even Ireland had insular Christianity and it took time to convert all of Scandinavia as well. What you're bringing up is also hard to verify on just how common it even was so it's a pretty hearsay argument to begin with.

I think you're fundamentally not understanding what I'm getting at either, the church bottom line wouldn't be okay with people like the game lets you know they know about like Ill peter, Ursula (optionally), or Ottilla. They're both known by multiple priests to harbor these opinions during a time where people weren't tolerant of such things like in the modern era. The game even makes a dialogue of this and they end up dying anyways so it's still a very odd inclusion. I will restate again this wouldn't bother me if it wasn't all added up.

I'm not making a suggestion that everywhere had a strong oral tradition that was 100% nor does the game. I have no idea where you got that from. Some of the pagan traditions didn't survive where I live specifically, but they did in other parts of Poland (like szeptucha, a woman that would be under an extra threat of being burned at a stake). However as you can see, oral tradition has managed to survive for quite a while in Tassing. If that thing that has very much happened in many places in real life troubles you then I don't know how to respond other than maybe you writing to Josh Sawyer on Twitter that you don't like it when signs of paganism survive in media. Like there's not much of a discussion of historical accuracy, you're just unhappy that the game was written that way.

You don't have to explain to me why knowledge of Slavic paganism wasn't perticularly well preserved. I was the first one to acknowledge that. And yes, you do not know a whole lot of Polish culture or folklore.

And church is visibly not okay with cultivating pagan traditions in Tassing. Them not actively punishing people like Ottilia or Ill Peter, I would assume from my exquisite literacy skills are to avoid unrest, expectation that some of their more hardcore pagan beliefs will die with them and quite notably, that some of them geniuenly care for well being of people in Tassing and would prefer for them to not face a death sentence. Obviously a spoiler for one of the endings but if Ferenc survives in Act 1 and becomes an inquisitor, he protects Ursula and Vacslav from being burned at the stake and has them pardoned.

Originally posted by Jacket:

Very long winded no u, I mean the church actually did address this because nuns did receive abortions in some amount. I assume we're limiting our definitions to just Europe because this isn't a cross cultural belief exactly in Europe either. It really doesn't matter what you or me feel about it, it's just bad characterization. I think attacking me like you are right now is more of a bad faith tactic than it is actually engaging with what I'm saying. Also it's not obvious it wasn't found as a "moral wrong" and would be something very rare to begin with. You're just imposing your beliefs on it now while accusing me of doing the same.

Also it is psychopathic to just abort something and then act like it's no big deal to someone else. I'm glad you didn't dare try to argue the contradiction I pointed out with Andreas and the children in his life either. If you think this is normal you need to interact with women in the real world or even talk to a woman who has had an abortion. Perhaps it's just a case of bad male writing about women but it's just uncanny.

What you're saying is beyond disingenuous however and theologians have compared it to sacrificing children to Canaanite gods. The only way you can get around this is if you twist what conception means, this has only changed in modern terms because we understand how far the process is and people started arguing a zygote isn't conception meanwhile it's the literal first brief stage of human person hood.

Here's a source from around that time they did respond to this and it makes sense with their theological beliefs. This isn't some contemporary thing I'm saying either actually. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12178868/

What moral beliefs am I imposing? Acknowledging the very correct claim that some people were fine enough with abortion to perform it? Yes, I'm imposing it very hard.

There is no contradiction in Andreas mourning his child that was actually born and Andreas actually had a chance to interact with. First, again a reminder, Act 2 takes place literal years after Act 1, Andreas had no idea that Zdena even got pregnant and learns of it quite a long while after it actually transpired and as I decided to verify for myself, she explicitly tells him that it happened very early into the pregnancy, so definitely before the quickening. Not to mention the tiny detail of Andreas and Zdena indulging in carnal pleasures outside of wedlock, which you know... already qualifies as a sin, especially for Zdena and Andreas didn't question that other than being able to feel sorry for Zdena in Act 2.

"After I've already unknowingly contributed to almost ruining this woman's life, I would actually like to seal the deal and ruin it for real and also consciously this time." - Andreas Maler but with better writing apparently.

Anyway You've played the game, I can see you have it on your account, you probably should be aware that Zdena makes it very clear that she was not fine with having to go through abortion.

And yes, thank you for pointing out that abortion while shunned, was not always viewed as homicide by the Church. I assume I've made that clear enough already, but apparently not.

Originally posted by Jacket:

Yeah player agency is a good thing. I get they had to cut stuff for cost but it's convenient how you can't do anything like that like a specific contemporary world view would be mad about. The fact you can point out an example I didn't show, shows me you understand what I'm saying in the very least. This instance also shows you can tell what I mean without nasty polemics you're trying to use.

Yes, there should also be an option for Andreas to try to join in. Isn't it weird how the game restricts player agency by making Andreas canonically straight? Oh wait, you didn't have that kind of agency in mind, didn't you?

[Jacket]

Originally posted by NeeLot:

I see you seem to be avoiding the "Walking, talking corpse has killed your parents" part of KCD.

Once again, unable to differentiate between a single individual and a whole group, you fail to grasp that there might in fact be a difference between presenting a single individual miller as a bad person and every single miller in that piece of fiction. Also you know that Lenhardt's son Paul takes over his father's mill after Act 2, right?

You do know like Pentiment the entire story of KCD is historically inaccurate right? I don't see the point of hinging on that point exactly. Henry and Andreas didn't exist but the goals of both the teams was trying to make something authentic to the era.

I don't think all millers were bad if you actually read what I wrote that'd be clear to you instead of putting your impression of me first. I'm aware of his son yes again you're being a bit dense. KCD just does this so you have a person to sell stolen goods to across the map this clearly isn't some kind of anti-miller propaganda lol. It's still a VIDEO GAME.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

And so we have reached that point where you're not just complaining about the relatively inprobable (not impossible) scenario and have achieved you being confidently wrong. My congratulations. During the game's timeframe while as far as I'm aware there aren't any records of Ethiopians crossing Alps (can't be too sure though), we do in fact know that there were planty of them coming through Mediterranean. We know that Ethiopia maintained diplomatic relationship with states like Venice, Aragon and Portugal, we know that there have been entire communities of them in Rome to the point where we have a painting of pope Paul III granting Regimini militantis Ecclesiae to newly founded Jesuit order with his Ethiopian advisor standing right behind him. There's been an Ethiopian Catholic Church (Santo Stefano degli Abissini) in Rome back then (restored by Sixtus IV in late 15th century) and it stands to this day. Why should I even bother responding to you? You clearly have no idea what you're writing about. Previously I would be kind enough to assume you've made an honest mistake getting the century during which the game's is set wrong, just a simple typo. I'm putting that into question now.

We haven't reached any "point" this is a conversation not a narrative lmao. Yes me complaining about the statistical improbability of things and complaining it's bad writing to shoehorn in their personal sensibilities on how they world is or ought to be is what I've been saying yes. No it's not wrong to dislike this, it's literally an opinion you have to buckle up and accept. For someone who says they haven't worked on the game you're taking this very personally. It's a bit disingenuous to say that there were "plenty" of Ethiopians that went to Europe, it's just genuinely not the case until the modern era. You're telling me I have no idea what I'm writing about but you're just making up stuff because I guess you identify with the activism in the arts. I know the game begins in 1518 it was just a typo which you've done enough yourself if we're going to pick on spelling, because I was being kind about letting that go.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

I'm sorry could you please explain to me what kind of ideology and sensibilities lead to portrayal of adultery in media? I really see that you keep struggling with the fact just because is unlikely to happen, doesn't mean that it cannot happen, that (and I'm writing that again) characters do not need to be written to fit how you imagine them all to behave, and I feel like we have already your idea of early modern Europe is definitely more based in imagination that in historical sources. But I recognize that it troubles your deeply, no idea why specifically, maybe you have personal reasons for that, but I don't know and I don't care for it.

Do you watch a lot of movies? I don't know why I'm asking questions I'm done after this. People do this all the time and it's a very pessimistic ideology, I'm not blaming some kind of thing that goes by a name but it's a very clear trend in the arts regardless of quality. It's cheap writing tactics because drama sells. I will repeat again since you can't grasp this and you can point to the sign kicking and screaming while I do this. It does not matter whether it would be possible, it is bad taste to try and portray the improbable as normal while also adding nothing of value to the story, and I would also add onto this it's just cheap writing. You can attack me personally all you want but it doesn't undermine my statements, that's usually a sign you lost the argument anyways.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

I feel like we have already your idea of early modern Europe is definitely more based in imagination that in historical sources.

What am I complaining about that's historically accurate? You'd have a point here if they didn't just sacrifice the authenticity here. You agree what I'm saying is improbable so I don't understand what's the point. It's similar to identity politics where it'd be representing 1940s NYC with a gay trans handicapped character, sure it *could* exist, that doesn't mean it represents the culture or setting.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

There's this thing that you consistently keep failing to recognize. Vacslav is not the Romani people. Vacslav is Vacslav, a single character, written not to be how you imagine every single Romani to be and I recognize that it visibly disturbs you to witness a character not being written in a way you imagine all people within a certain group to be (it happened multiple times already), but I hope that you will eventually recognize that's it's a failure on your part. I mean you probably won't, but you know... I can still hope.

Again just attacking me instead of the argument because you have no argument. It doesn't "disturb" me, if anything my opinions "disturb" you for some reason. I just don't like bad writing. You're genuinely lost in this idea why probability would matter in a story that is trying to immerse you. I wish you had a higher standard instead of defending garbage tooth and nail but here we are.

Genuine question, are you okay with stories where it's uncanny to you or do you not even experience that? Maybe you should read some creative writing and dissect the issues with it so you can pick up on what I'm describing. It is bad writing to represent someone from a small group totally different than they would act at all. This isn't a failure on anyone but lazy writing, they didn't want to research folk beliefs for Romani and just put in something they already read regardless if it made sense. I don't see why they couldn't have referenced this with a character that'd it make sense with? Is there an issue portraying Romani at all, you don't have to make him a literal thief stereotype to make him believable either.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

I'm not making a suggestion that everywhere had a strong oral tradition that was 100% nor does the game. I have no idea where you got that from. Some of the pagan traditions didn't survive where I live specifically, but they did in other parts of Poland (like szeptucha, a woman that would be under an extra threat of being burned at a stake). However as you can see, oral tradition has managed to survive for quite a while in Tassing. If that thing that has very much happened in many places in real life troubles you then I don't know how to respond other than maybe you writing to Josh Sawyer on Twitter that you don't like it when signs of paganism survive in media. Like there's not much of a discussion of historical accuracy, you're just unhappy that the game was written that way.

It's just it doesn't make sense for Tassing in the year it is I hate that you're making me repeat myself. Sure it *could* in a made up town but it'd be very unlikely considering how close it is to Rome compared to Poland. Also I'm upset the game has these weird liberties and inaccuracies. I don't care if signs of paganism survive in media, again the issue is it doesn't make sense even internally to the story. I even told you the priests wouldn't be tolerant of that, you've gone so overboard with bad faith you're not even addressing me anymore. All of the characters of it didn't have to be killed for it either, that was usually the state that did that on behalf of the church anyways. The Abbey more than likely would've made them gone through a Penance or a far lighter punishment than death realistically.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

"After I've already unknowingly contributed to almost ruining this woman's life, I would actually like to seal the deal and ruin it for real and also consciously this time." - Andreas Maler but with better writing apparently.

Anyway You've played the game, I can see you have it on your account, you probably should be aware that Zdena makes it very clear that she was not fine with having to go through abortion.

And yes, thank you for pointing out that abortion while shunned, was not always viewed as homicide by the Church. I assume I've made that clear enough already, but apparently not

This is an extremely disingenuous way to portray it that actually doesn't agree with you in what you're inferring. It's treated as a different crime, yes. It doesn't mean it was okay or "obviously" morally alright. Clearly you definitely identify with Sawyers politics.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

Yes, there should also be an option for Andreas to try to join in. Isn't it weird how the game restricts player agency by making Andreas canonically straight? Oh wait, you didn't have that kind of agency in mind, didn't you?

I don't care since it'd be up to the player. Notice how I'm not complaining about showing gay priests? Wanna know why? It's because there were actually a collection of them throughout centuries. You want to know what I'm complaining about? Historical accuracy, you realize every point you defend like the Romani character (didn't exist at all), Ethiopians travelling (so rare they're literally historical markers), and the weirdo pessimism most historical movies take, and the worse thing is THEY KNOW BETTER. They didn't make Pentiment grey and brown like every modern movie of that era. If they really wanted to make Zdena accurate she could've died during pregnancy, that happened all the time even back then. It wouldn't have felt like cheap moral messaging like "that the world is just so ♥♥♥♥♥♥ always just like me!!" any time I see cheap stuff like this in media that's basically what I imagine. It would've had a bigger impact too since it's not just one death on Andreas mind but two, yet again inexplicably the man who cares about children doesn't give a ♥♥♥♥ about his unborn child. You don't have to be a wignat or tradcath larper or whatever you think I am to be tired of this garbage, it's Rick and Morty tier writing. You don't even address half my points like why does Pentiment need a cuckolding sub-plot to be good? It's just shock writing in bad taste, it's not reflective of the times or culture either. Honestly I have a hard time even giving it the benefit of the doubt because this sub-plot would stick out like a sore thumb even if it was the only one that was odd. It's just a strange thing to add to your narrative not just game. Sure it happened throughout all of time, is it worthwhile showing so many unlikely things in tandem to one another in a story? No.

Go argue with the straw-man in your head though I'm not replying any further to you. You've taken my opinions way too emotionally about a game you claim you didn't work on.

[Asmodeus]

This thread has been a wall of text battle. So I'm not going to follow in kind, but give just a few pointers in particular also for other users that stumble on this thread.

1. There are well documentes records that 15th to 16th Ethopians travelled Europe to gather religious objects for the similar Christian Ethiopian king. So it fits the story very well, that there is an Ethiopian traveller guesting for a short time in a famous monastary.

Follow up here if you are interested:

Verena Krebs: Medieval Ethiopian Kingship, Craft, and Diplomacy with Latin Europe. Palgrave Macmillan, Ort 2021, ISBN 9783030649340


2. I think you are projecting 19th century European morals and American puritan ideals brought forth in most of their movies on the European middle ages.

There is a vast amount of literature on adultery being prevalent in the middle ages. For men it was even socially accepted. Of course the church was always against it and tried to put blame and harsher punishment on women, but only managed to really get a foothold with the appearance of modern type law enforcement. In the context of the story the enforcement of any repercussion on the wife would have to come from the husband. It is well explained in character why this is no option.

Follow up with studies on the prevalent "Bußbücher" (penitential books) or secondary literature based on them.

3. Not commenting on this one, because it is historically believable and in the freedom of a writer to create such a character.

4. The church embraced a lot of pagan rituals and integrated them in their canon and did tolerate others.
There are still pagan rituals performed in the 21th century. Reports of the "Perchtenlauf" in the 18th century are even discussed in wikipedia .

[Jacket]

On your first point I'm aware of it happening it just was rare in number. We've already talked about this extensively in this and I provided literature on how hard it is to travel even after that century. Nobody is claiming it didn't happen ever, just of course when it did happen it's a significant footnote in history. I find the fact it being improbable in such a little poor town to begin with part of the problem too which I should've emphasized.

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

2. I think you are projecting 19th century European morals and American puritan ideals brought forth in most of their movies on the European middle ages.

There is a vast amount of literature on adultery being prevalent in the middle ages. For men it was even socially accepted. Of course the church was always against it and tried to put blame and harsher punishment on women, but only managed to really get a foothold with the appearance of modern type law enforcement. In the context of the story the enforcement of any repercussion on the wife would have to come from the husband. It is well explained in character why this is no option.

Follow up with studies on the prevalent "Bußbücher" (penitential books) or secondary literature based on them.

Second point, I'm not confusing puritan beliefs. I'm aware of nobility or gentry in some places would be unfaithful but I'm not certain how much the peasantry would actually cheat like that. Their society was very oppressive in that aspect for people of a lower social status, it's not like today. The peasantry wouldn't easily be able to avoid or get around punishments under an abbey either. Also like you said it was very one sided with men which I agree with which makes his reaction very odd and contemporary to me. A lot of the times people breaking these rules in the past were in part because of their class and status. I will admit the information bias on this subject is that famous people being unfaithful would be documented more than regular peasants but it's also just not something we have any real data on as far as I'm aware with peasantry or even nobility that I'm aware of.

I'm aware they're Inn keepers but that doesn't necessarily mean they're wealthy or above peasant status. I also disagree it is "well" explained, granted the guy doesn't have to explain anything to you but it's incredibly weird and I find it lazy. I also found Niko to have little characterization to begin with other than him being shy and being a cuckold.

I would also like to add if we're going to speak about historicity we must consider what is also possible defamation which could be a lot of random things.

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

3. Not commenting on this one, because it is historically believable and in the freedom of a writer to create such a character.

Third point I agree he's free to write the character that way but I'm also free to criticize it. After looking at what he's based on it doesn't logically make sense and I disagree it's believable, the character really doesn't make sense for him to hold gnostic beliefs similar to a cathar combined with the beliefs of Menocchio in that book the other guy mentioned. Not saying it's impossible to hold some of these beliefs but he's quite over educated on this sort of topic. I'm aware it takes liberties but I'm saying in tandem with this sort of specific trend. I also just still don't see the issue of just showing off his already unique culture, I don't remember an explanation on why this is the case on his part but I don't think he does.

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

4. The church embraced a lot of pagan rituals and integrated them in their canon and did tolerate others.
There are still pagan rituals performed in the 21th century. Reports of the "Perchtenlauf" in the 18th century are even discussed in wikipedia .

I assume you didn't read all of what we typed about but I'll make it clear again that I didn't mean 0 paganism survived or reference wasn't talked about. A lot of what we do know is still being reconstructed by scholarly work and my issue is instead of the syncretism like "Perchtenlauf" has now since Krampus is an antagonist to Santa Claus/St. Nick. It's also not the same thing as Ottillla and Ill Peter bringing up specific things that the church would inquire about with them since they're very open with it. This is a minor complaint though and more on just how in tandem with all of this together. A lot of ways the game chose to represent it affected my suspension of disbelief in some parts.

My point in this wasn't to make anyone mad but just genuine conversation. I don't mind debating but I was just listing off some I noticed. I imagine I'll notice more when I replay it but I doubt anything that sticks out too greatly. They've focused on a lot of things like how Andreas even walks which is pretty crazy.

[NeeLot]

Originally posted by Jacket:

You do know like Pentiment the entire story of KCD is historically inaccurate right? I don't see the point of hinging on that point exactly. Henry and Andreas didn't exist but the goals of both the teams was trying to make something authentic to the era.

I don't think all millers were bad if you actually read what I wrote that'd be clear to you instead of putting your impression of me first. I'm aware of his son yes again you're being a bit dense. KCD just does this so you have a person to sell stolen goods to across the map this clearly isn't some kind of anti-miller propaganda lol. It's still a VIDEO GAME.

The correct description for both Pentiment and KCD is that their stories are fictional, not that they are historically inacurate. There are some inaccuracies in both games (unfortunately you've failed to point out the actual proper inaccuracies in Pentiment). Do not confuse the terms. However, all characters appearing on screen in Pentiment are fictional while KCD utilizes numerous real historical figures and I assumed you've played KCD, because I explictly alluded to Markvart of Ulice, a man who should be a rotting corpse when the game starts and somehow he appears to be still alive within an hour of the game's start and directly participates in its story.

I don't think you understand the miller part. Do you know that it was a very common belief in the middle ages that millers were just scum in general? Miller's job was very important but it was also very lucrative. They were after all making all that grain edible and since owning or even renting a mill was quite an investment and there weren't that many of them, it obviously made millers wealthier than most peasants on average and also made it easier for them to survive during the times of famine which caused resentment. Millers were often suspected of taking more grain for themselves than they should've, colluding with thieves and being bad people in general. So KCD takes this common false belief that all millers were bad people and then makes it true within the game's world.

Originally posted by Jacket:

We haven't reached any "point" this is a conversation not a narrative lmao. Yes me complaining about the statistical improbability of things and complaining it's bad writing to shoehorn in their personal sensibilities on how they world is or ought to be is what I've been saying yes. No it's not wrong to dislike this, it's literally an opinion you have to buckle up and accept. For someone who says they haven't worked on the game you're taking this very personally. It's a bit disingenuous to say that there were "plenty" of Ethiopians that went to Europe, it's just genuinely not the case until the modern era. You're telling me I have no idea what I'm writing about but you're just making up stuff because I guess you identify with the activism in the arts. I know the game begins in 1518 it was just a typo which you've done enough yourself if we're going to pick on spelling, because I was being kind about letting that go.

We have reached the point where you have made a false claim. We know that there were plenty of Ethiopians in Europe. We're not talking millions but enough to have their own church in Rome (specifically in Vatican City) and enough to have the ear of the pope, which you have completely ingored. We have historical accounts of them being in many places in Europe, maintaining diplomatic relationships with European states and even travelling beyond Mediterranean coast so brother Sebhat travelling to Kiersau monastery is not a historical inaccuracy. I know you just want to complain that there's black people in vidya and it makes you unhappy. Just be honest about it.

Originally posted by Jacket:

Do you watch a lot of movies? I don't know why I'm asking questions I'm done after this. People do this all the time and it's a very pessimistic ideology, I'm not blaming some kind of thing that goes by a name but it's a very clear trend in the arts regardless of quality. It's cheap writing tactics because drama sells. I will repeat again since you can't grasp this and you can point to the sign kicking and screaming while I do this. It does not matter whether it would be possible, it is bad taste to try and portray the improbable as normal while also adding nothing of value to the story, and I would also add onto this it's just cheap writing. You can attack me personally all you want but it doesn't undermine my statements, that's usually a sign you lost the argument anyways.

Depends on what do you mean by "a lot of movies". Certainly enough to have seen at least one different movie for every week that I've been alive. Even wrote a thesis deconstructing Birth of a Nation for my degree at uni. Also the game does not portray Hanna's adultery and Niko's reaction as normal or good. The only thing that makes you upset that it's there at all. Be upset if you want, it's your right, but don't shield yourself behind claims of accuracy.

Originally posted by Jacket:

What am I complaining about that's historically accurate? You'd have a point here if they didn't just sacrifice the authenticity here. You agree what I'm saying is improbable so I don't understand what's the point. It's similar to identity politics where it'd be representing 1940s NYC with a gay trans handicapped character, sure it *could* exist, that doesn't mean it represents the culture or setting.

If a character can realistically exist in a piece of fiction, then what's the problem? Why do you feel the need to have every piece of historical fiction to fall specifically into your imagined view of how that setting was? It was unlikely for a secular journeyman artist to work at an abbey, but I don't see you complaining about that, only about black people, infidelity, Romani not being hive minds, paganism, and abortions, all of which are more plausible.

Originally posted by Jacket:

Again just attacking me instead of the argument because you have no argument. It doesn't "disturb" me, if anything my opinions "disturb" you for some reason. I just don't like bad writing. You're genuinely lost in this idea why probability would matter in a story that is trying to immerse you. I wish you had a higher standard instead of defending garbage tooth and nail but here we are.

Genuine question, are you okay with stories where it's uncanny to you or do you not even experience that? Maybe you should read some creative writing and dissect the issues with it so you can pick up on what I'm describing. It is bad writing to represent someone from a small group totally different than they would act at all. This isn't a failure on anyone but lazy writing, they didn't want to research folk beliefs for Romani and just put in something they already read regardless if it made sense. I don't see why they couldn't have referenced this with a character that'd it make sense with? Is there an issue portraying Romani at all, you don't have to make him a literal thief stereotype to make him believable either.

Just because I'm a meanie, doesn't mean that the argument isn't there. You clearly have an issue with Romani people being portrayed as individual human beings with their own agency and beliefs that don't need to fall into your imagined idea of how all Romani people should be. Vacslav being of Romani heritage as his secondary characteristic and him having his own independent beliefs that are not tied to him being Romani is not unrealistic and it's not bad writing. Like how difficult is it to consider that maybe perhaps he was deliberately written to be that way? Did you watch the video of Josh Sawyer discussing Pentiment?

Also I like how you seem to be implying that making him a thief stereotype would make him more believable. Fits together nicely with the casual use of a slur.

Originally posted by Jacket:

It's just it doesn't make sense for Tassing in the year it is I hate that you're making me repeat myself. Sure it *could* in a made up town but it'd be very unlikely considering how close it is to Rome compared to Poland. Also I'm upset the game has these weird liberties and inaccuracies. I don't care if signs of paganism survive in media, again the issue is it doesn't make sense even internally to the story. I even told you the priests wouldn't be tolerant of that, you've gone so overboard with bad faith you're not even addressing me anymore. All of the characters of it didn't have to be killed for it either, that was usually the state that did that on behalf of the church anyways. The Abbey more than likely would've made them gone through a Penance or a far lighter punishment than death realistically.

Please tell me, since Germany is closer to Rome than Poland is, how do you imagine Germanic paganism has been preserved better than Slavic paganism? I'd personally argue that it's largely irrelevant and we have sources on oral traditions surviving for way beyond game's timeframe. Perchta was primarily worshipped in the Alpine region, it's pretty close to Rome and yet somehow it survived long enough up until enlightenment. Like how do you manage to ignore that?

Originally posted by Jacket:

This is an extremely disingenuous way to portray it that actually doesn't agree with you in what you're inferring. It's treated as a different crime, yes. It doesn't mean it was okay or "obviously" morally alright. Clearly you definitely identify with Sawyers politics.

Literally never wrote that it was obviously morally alright or not a crime, only that to some people were obviously it was morally okay enough to be fine with performing it and going through with it, which is an objectively correct statement because abortions did in fact happen during that time period.

Originally posted by Jacket:

I don't care since it'd be up to the player. Notice how I'm not complaining about showing gay priests? Wanna know why? It's because there were actually a collection of them throughout centuries. You want to know what I'm complaining about? Historical accuracy, you realize every point you defend like the Romani character (didn't exist at all), Ethiopians travelling (so rare they're literally historical markers), and the weirdo pessimism most historical movies take, and the worse thing is THEY KNOW BETTER. They didn't make Pentiment grey and brown like every modern movie of that era. If they really wanted to make Zdena accurate she could've died during pregnancy, that happened all the time even back then. It wouldn't have felt like cheap moral messaging like "that the world is just so ♥♥♥♥♥♥ always just like me!!" any time I see cheap stuff like this in media that's basically what I imagine. It would've had a bigger impact too since it's not just one death on Andreas mind but two, yet again inexplicably the man who cares about children doesn't give a ♥♥♥♥ about his unborn child. You don't have to be a wignat or tradcath larper or whatever you think I am to be tired of this garbage, it's Rick and Morty tier writing. You don't even address half my points like why does Pentiment need a cuckolding sub-plot to be good? It's just shock writing in bad taste, it's not reflective of the times or culture either. Honestly I have a hard time even giving it the benefit of the doubt because this sub-plot would stick out like a sore thumb even if it was the only one that was odd. It's just a strange thing to add to your narrative not just game. Sure it happened throughout all of time, is it worthwhile showing so many unlikely things in tandem to one another in a story? No.

Go argue with the straw-man in your head though I'm not replying any further to you. You've taken my opinions way too emotionally about a game you claim you didn't work on.

First, Mathieu and Rudeger are monks. Second, as you may have noticed, there are some things about how Andreas is written that cannot be influenced by the player. He's an artist, he received higher education, he's straight, he doesn't consider the thought of intentionally ruining Zdena's life. You can make some choices for him, but he's still written to be a certain way and it appears that it's only an issue to you when it conflicts with your personal beliefs.

Yes, Vacslav is in fact fictional. Never argued his fictionality, only that he's not defined by him being Romani.

No, Ethiopians travelling in 16th century were not extremely rare. They literally had a permanent community in Rome at the time as signified by Santo Stefano degli Abissini.

You keep bringing this "weirdo pessimism" and I have absolutely no idea what do you mean by that.

Also did you just imply that pregnancies had 100% maternal mortality rate? If not how would Zdena dying make it accurate? The game already acknowledges higher maternal mortality of the time period. It's implied that Peter's first wife died at childbirth. Or is it about abortions? You know that the game explicitly states that Zdena was given an unspecified abortifacient early into her pregnancy and even then, she still suffers from health complications?

The game doesn't have a cuckolding sub-plot, the game has dozens of characters, some of whom are not very good people and some of them are adulterers. You can beat the entire game without even discovering Hanna's or Lenhardt's infidelity.

Also again, you are projecting your own flawed beliefs into the game's story. To repeat myself, Zdena's abortion happened before quickening, she say that she received it "before fetus was formed" and it was not viewed as homicide. Also, not sure if you're aware, but going into more modern times, I hope you are aware that pro-choice advocates are not part of some nefarious toddler kicking lobby and many in fact have children themselves. Being able to grieve a child that was actually born and being pro choice are in fact not mutually exclusive ideas.

Originally posted by Jacket:

We've already talked about this extensively in this and I provided literature on how hard it is to travel even after that century.

I believe we call those kinds of claims lies. Can you point to the post where you've provided the literature? But here let me grant you an article with some citations: https://oxfordre.com/africanhistory/oso/viewentry/10.1093$002facrefore$002f9780190277734.001.0001$002facrefore-9780190277734-e-187;jsessionid=29AD87808E9F269F7D67CC1797983C8A

[Jacket]

Originally posted by NeeLot:

I don't think you understand the miller part. Do you know that it was a very common belief in the middle ages that millers were just scum in general? Miller's job was very important but it was also very lucrative. They were after all making all that grain edible and since owning or even renting a mill was quite an investment and there weren't that many of them, it obviously made millers wealthier than most peasants on average and also made it easier for them to survive during the times of famine which caused resentment. Millers were often suspected of taking more grain for themselves than they should've, colluding with thieves and being bad people in general. So KCD takes this common false belief that all millers were bad people and then makes it true within the game's world.

It's a video game where you can sell stolen things to people, I don't know why you assume it's perpetuating some grand conspiracy of anti-miller propaganda instead of just having it be a reference to it and a game mechanic so you can sell stolen things. It's a weird hill to die on. I'm pretty sure you're intentionally being obtuse about it because of people who agree with me on these things like it as well while I notice people like you who identify with these 'creative' choices hate it inexplicably.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

We have reached the point where you have made a false claim. We know that there were plenty of Ethiopians in Europe. We're not talking millions but enough to have their own church in Rome (specifically in Vatican City) and enough to have the ear of the pope, which you have completely ingored. We have historical accounts of them being in many places in Europe, maintaining diplomatic relationships with European states and even travelling beyond Mediterranean coast so brother Sebhat travelling to Kiersau monastery is not a historical inaccuracy. I know you just want to complain that there's black people in vidya and it makes you unhappy. Just be honest about it.

You're just lying and going to the absurd now. You realize these are footnotes in history? They weren't insignificant things that happened. You can ctrl + f and find the book I recommended on the topic of travel to North Africa. "I recommend a book to you, Sufferings in Africa, because it shows how hard it actually was for most to travel across the continent to even get to and back from the north."

You know what we should do? Make a game about 16th century Mali and bring a white character preaching about white Jesus and give him blonde hair and blue eyes specifically, that wouldn't be poor taste or out of left field no way!

Originally posted by NeeLot:

Please tell me, since Germany is closer to Rome than Poland is, how do you imagine Germanic paganism has been preserved better than Slavic paganism? I'd personally argue that it's largely irrelevant and we have sources on oral traditions surviving for way beyond game's timeframe. Perchta was primarily worshipped in the Alpine region, it's pretty close to Rome and yet somehow it survived long enough up until enlightenment. Like how do you manage to ignore that?

How are you even quantifying this claim? Even if it is true it's not like we know so much about German paganism because of Germans what we do know is based on the Scandinavians. There is actual distinction there too.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

Just because I'm a meanie, doesn't mean that the argument isn't there. You clearly have an issue with Romani people being portrayed as individual human beings with their own agency and beliefs that don't need to fall into your imagined idea of how all Romani people should be. Vacslav being of Romani heritage as his secondary characteristic and him having his own independent beliefs that are not tied to him being Romani is not unrealistic and it's not bad writing. Like how difficult is it to consider that maybe perhaps he was deliberately written to be that way? Did you watch the video of Josh Sawyer discussing Pentiment?

Also I like how you seem to be implying that making him a thief stereotype would make him more believable. Fits together nicely with the casual use of a slur.

I brought up the thief stereotype because clearly you would think that I think it would fit him. You're not really subtle with what you think about me. Your arrogance ruins anything you could be saying right now. Like what's next are you gonna call me a "snowflake" lol. I really don't care what you think about this anymore especially since you ignore half my questions and statements like what's the issue of depicting them how they would normally act? If anything you've proven to me an idiot can be educated and can't distinguish reality within reason.

Still insisting it's a slur or I was even using it as a slur even when I showed you a video of a woman calling herself that? Of course not, to acknowledge that would challenge your own beliefs lol

Originally posted by NeeLot:

Also did you just imply that pregnancies had 100% maternal mortality rate? If not how would Zdena dying make it accurate? The game already acknowledges higher maternal mortality of the time period. It's implied that Peter's first wife died at childbirth. Or is it about abortions? You know that the game explicitly states that Zdena was given an unspecified abortifacient early into her pregnancy and even then, she still suffers from health complications?

Is English not your first language? I don't know how else to react to this like where would you infer I think they have a 100% mortality rate. I personally think they're just trying to make cheap drama in the game so I suggested an alternative instead of a random abortion sub-plot.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

You keep bringing this "weirdo pessimism" and I have absolutely no idea what do you mean by that.

There's a difference between depicting a revolt pretty accurately which they managed while having an abortion subplot and a cuckolding subplot in your 16th century medieval video game in tandem. There's really no need for these subplots other than drama for the sake of drama. I'm not sorry I don't like the writing around these two and you will have to accept that, you being passive aggressive or feigning ignorance isn't going to change my opinion. I've iterated multiple times now why I find it wholly unrealistic and very pessimistic.

Originally posted by NeeLot:

I believe we call those kinds of claims lies. Can you point to the post where you've provided the literature? But here let me grant you an article with some citations: https://oxfordre.com/africanhistory/oso/viewentry/10.1093$002facrefore$002f9780190277734.001.0001$002facrefore-9780190277734-e-187;jsessionid=29AD87808E9F269F7D67CC1797983C8A

You've now proven to me you didn't read most of what I write and explains why you just pick and choose what to respond to. I'm not going to give you the same treatment as before because I told you I'm already done but I'm not going to just let you pretend I'm some liar either. ctrl + f "I recommend a book to you, Sufferings in Africa, because it shows how hard it actually was for most to travel across the continent to even get to and back from the north."

On all of the Ethiopian stuff you're only proving my point on how uncommon it is. I didn't know about a micro-community in Vatican city but cool. It doesn't actually change anything I've stated and wholly irrelevant to my point. The extreme irony is your own citation does not confirm what you're defending either, you know there weren't "plenty" if you bothered to comprehend what you're sending. It's either you are beyond disingenuous or you are severely detached from reality.

Your insistence kind proves my point about this being a delicately constructed world view I mean look at how many micro examples and footnotes you give me acting like it'd be a common occurrence it's embarrassing. Here is a creative challenge for you try to step into the shoes and adopt the points with people you disagree with. I'm genuinely done though I'm blocking you, you've brought up a lot of irrelevant things all over the place in your last post and this feels weirdly personal coming from you. You've accomplished nothing but making yourself more upset while failing to make a single real tangible argument. If you look at what you quote to me each time you conveniently don't address probability, what's wrong with depicting Roman folk beliefs versus book reference, and so on.

You clearly ascribe to the ideological positions on putting things like this in art or literature regardless of taste or quality, you basically outed yourself when you said this " I know you just want to complain that there's black people in vidya and it makes you unhappy. Just be honest about it." You're a very insincere individual who can not grasp what I'm saying as authentic; I don't care what you have to say further in this discussion.

[Nacho]

Originally posted by Jacket:

It's not only unlikely, it never happened.

Originally posted by Jacket:

Nobody is claiming it didn't happen ever

[Jacket]

Originally posted by Nacho:

Originally posted by Jacket:

It's not only unlikely, it never happened.

Originally posted by Jacket:

Nobody is claiming it didn't happen ever

Yes, the place in the game didn't exist and it actually never happened. Most of the world back then didn't receive a visit from Ethiopians, which shouldn't be a controversial statement. I didn't see the point of pointing out it was just unlikely. Just because it's something that could unlikely happen doesn't mean it's historically accurate or representative of the culture or history. I guess I really wasn't clear throughout this.

Now to clarify since you seem to be confused in general me saying it never happened in the fictional village of Tassing isn't the same thing as stating it never happened in Europe. If you read further on instead of cherry picking I think it's pretty obvious that's what I meant.

[4thQueen]

Josh Sawyer himself expands on the "improbable vs impossible" aspect of the narrative in his presentation here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhZcNA16m8A

I think it's very telling that you're up in arms about the brown people and not any of the other highly improbable events that take place in the game, not to mention the use and defense of using slurs.

In any case, I don't make it a policy to argue with racists, so I'll take my leave now.