Rouge Cards

[Frog]

Just some personal feedback, would love to hear your thoughts on this. The cards for the rouge class seem very underwhelming compared to the other classes, some legendary cards feel utterly useless and others feel like a debuff. For example, Emergency Tonic. This card costs 1 mana to play, it gives you 1 mana so it cancels out and gives you 3 block which is basically nothing. Early game that 3 block may help you out, but this is a legendary card, you will be down the floors or may get lucky in card rewards and get it early but it basically does nothing. You take it to hand when you get shaky hands or tired (there are way too many cards that just self inflict debuffs for rouge btw) and it basically gives you 3 block for getting a debuff. it needs to do more or be free so it actually gives you 1 mana.

Another card is lovers quarrel. it does 10 damage, okay that's good damage if you can stack it with some influences, some artefacts like rage cage, best pal maybe. But you are forced to choose with this card, either get a debuff of shaky hands or lose 3HP on discarding it. the obvious counter to this is just play it last, but why are so many debuffs getting stacked on rouges cards when mage gets off almost for free, sure there's some arcane stupor here and there but on the vast majority of cards you are going to take and upgrade into, no debuffs whatsoever where as rouge just feels like debuff management.

Would it be better for rouge to lose some of the debuffs? Tired is terrible as you lose a mana, Emergancy tonic should be the solution to this, maybe a rework to have it remove the debuff or do something more than give 3 block, that 3 block doesn't matter when the mage just freezes everything.

All in all, I think rouge needs a little looking at, you can make strong builds don't get me wrong for example taking a lot of arrows and going into sharp rain and or shrapnel and almost one hitting the whole room with the right set up of artefacts and influences. She is so lacklustre if you don't go for this and it would be nice to see less debuffs to allow a greater variety of builds and card combinations and builds.

love to hear your thoughts on this

[Konstanty]

Interesting read, thank you for writing this feedback down. I have forwarded it to the rest of the team, and will keep an eye on this thread to see if more people chime in with their thoughts.

[Frog]

I appreciate you responding, I do have a deep interest in rouge as she was the class I played first for a while. Hopefully some little tweaks or changes will make her just as fun as the other classes!

[3strikes1kill]

I think you're spot on with this. Especially when it comes to quarrels as they never seem worth building into compared to arrows. It would be nice if cards like deadly streak and porcupine worked for both arrows and quarrels like dragon's breath does.

[Systemz]

Originally posted by Frog:

Just some personal feedback, would love to hear your thoughts on this. The cards for the rouge class seem very underwhelming compared to the other classes, some legendary cards feel utterly useless and others feel like a debuff. For example, Emergency Tonic. This card costs 1 mana to play, it gives you 1 mana so it cancels out and gives you 3 block which is basically nothing. Early game that 3 block may help you out, but this is a legendary card, you will be down the floors or may get lucky in card rewards and get it early but it basically does nothing. You take it to hand when you get shaky hands or tired (there are way too many cards that just self inflict debuffs for rouge btw) and it basically gives you 3 block for getting a debuff. it needs to do more or be free so it actually gives you 1 mana.

Another card is lovers quarrel. it does 10 damage, okay that's good damage if you can stack it with some influences, some artefacts like rage cage, best pal maybe. But you are forced to choose with this card, either get a debuff of shaky hands or lose 3HP on discarding it. the obvious counter to this is just play it last, but why are so many debuffs getting stacked on rouges cards when mage gets off almost for free, sure there's some arcane stupor here and there but on the vast majority of cards you are going to take and upgrade into, no debuffs whatsoever where as rouge just feels like debuff management.

Would it be better for rouge to lose some of the debuffs? Tired is terrible as you lose a mana, Emergancy tonic should be the solution to this, maybe a rework to have it remove the debuff or do something more than give 3 block, that 3 block doesn't matter when the mage just freezes everything.

All in all, I think rouge needs a little looking at, you can make strong builds don't get me wrong for example taking a lot of arrows and going into sharp rain and or shrapnel and almost one hitting the whole room with the right set up of artefacts and influences. She is so lacklustre if you don't go for this and it would be nice to see less debuffs to allow a greater variety of builds and card combinations and builds.

love to hear your thoughts on this

Honestly all character classes have bad cards that can be totally useless in endless mode including the gold/legendary cards. Just because its a gold/legendary card does not mean its good, plus you need to pick the cards that compliment each other to build a good deck.

Like for Rogue I don't bother with block or skill cards.. My go to is shrapnel and secret stash. There is another card that changes all future talon cards into concussion cards too so you can do a lot of stunning. The only issue with stunning is that you cant stun the same enemies each round which sucks a lot more than the tired debuff IMO.

bombs are also fun AF with rogue early on. Unfortunately, kind of like what you're saying, they do not scale well if you play endless.

One thing I would love to see is maybe some kind of scale up system in play for endless mode, especially for relics or at the very least a way to dump relics that were useful in the beginning but now might get you killed late game.

[ShadowNinja]

Originally posted by Systemz:

One thing I would love to see is maybe some kind of scale up system in play for endless mode, especially for relics or at the very least a way to dump relics that were useful in the beginning but now might get you killed late game.

This is one of the top things I think would be a cool direction to go in: Have a way to boost the effect of the card (infinitely?) as opposed to transforming it into a different effect. You could even use those terms (Upgrade vs. Transform). I'm sure it would require a significant amount of reworking the current upgrade paths, but I think would really be beneficial to the endless mode.

[Frog]

Originally posted by Systemz:

Originally posted by Frog:

Just some personal feedback, would love to hear your thoughts on this. The cards for the rouge class seem very underwhelming compared to the other classes, some legendary cards feel utterly useless and others feel like a debuff. For example, Emergency Tonic. This card costs 1 mana to play, it gives you 1 mana so it cancels out and gives you 3 block which is basically nothing. Early game that 3 block may help you out, but this is a legendary card, you will be down the floors or may get lucky in card rewards and get it early but it basically does nothing. You take it to hand when you get shaky hands or tired (there are way too many cards that just self inflict debuffs for rouge btw) and it basically gives you 3 block for getting a debuff. it needs to do more or be free so it actually gives you 1 mana.

Another card is lovers quarrel. it does 10 damage, okay that's good damage if you can stack it with some influences, some artefacts like rage cage, best pal maybe. But you are forced to choose with this card, either get a debuff of shaky hands or lose 3HP on discarding it. the obvious counter to this is just play it last, but why are so many debuffs getting stacked on rouges cards when mage gets off almost for free, sure there's some arcane stupor here and there but on the vast majority of cards you are going to take and upgrade into, no debuffs whatsoever where as rouge just feels like debuff management.

Would it be better for rouge to lose some of the debuffs? Tired is terrible as you lose a mana, Emergancy tonic should be the solution to this, maybe a rework to have it remove the debuff or do something more than give 3 block, that 3 block doesn't matter when the mage just freezes everything.

All in all, I think rouge needs a little looking at, you can make strong builds don't get me wrong for example taking a lot of arrows and going into sharp rain and or shrapnel and almost one hitting the whole room with the right set up of artefacts and influences. She is so lacklustre if you don't go for this and it would be nice to see less debuffs to allow a greater variety of builds and card combinations and builds.

love to hear your thoughts on this

Honestly all character classes have bad cards that can be totally useless in endless mode including the gold/legendary cards. Just because its a gold/legendary card does not mean its good, plus you need to pick the cards that compliment each other to build a good deck.

Like for Rogue I don't bother with block or skill cards.. My go to is shrapnel and secret stash. There is another card that changes all future talon cards into concussion cards too so you can do a lot of stunning. The only issue with stunning is that you cant stun the same enemies each round which sucks a lot more than the tired debuff IMO.

bombs are also fun AF with rogue early on. Unfortunately, kind of like what you're saying, they do not scale well if you play endless.

One thing I would love to see is maybe some kind of scale up system in play for endless mode, especially for relics or at the very least a way to dump relics that were useful in the beginning but now might get you killed late game.

Interesting, I did have a major oversight with sleeve trick and then secret stash or other cards that generate talon arrows, that would be a strong build, amazing if you could get shrapnel on top. I will stick to my point of emergency tonic not performing as it should and do believe it needs a change. It is legendary but I think legendary cards should have a good thing about them and should impact the game in a meaningful way since I have spent my currency upgrading to this point just for it to fall off completely. You are right in the fact that all classes have bad cards and cards that are overshadowed by stronger variants, but I think it would help replay ability and enjoyment if I could build something different when i start a new run or if I get offered only certain cards then i can make something of it instead of I didn't get anything that gets me to shrapnel, I'm not getting offered many arrow cards, I'm getting carried until my build comes online over an hour into the run. I think I am focusing on the debuffs too much but I can't understand why quarrels need shaky hands whenever you play them, lowering your damage when most of the time you can hit 2 monsters for a low damage, which gets lower with each play. Compare it to Book rip on the mage, 5 damage AOE with no downsides, actually a good thing as it draws you 1 card per active book and you can start with this card, maybe 2 of them with chocolate box. Seems that other classes are getting more love than others, I do focus on mage a lot but from playing they seem to have everything and be good at it. Maybe I focus on arrows and quarrels so much I don't use bombs, which may be the great part about this class, like you said they are fun to use early but fall off late in endless, but that's every class atm.

[Systemz]

Originally posted by Frog:

Interesting, I did have a major oversight with sleeve trick and then secret stash or other cards that generate talon arrows, that would be a strong build, amazing if you could get shrapnel on top. I will stick to my point of emergency tonic not performing as it should and do believe it needs a change. It is legendary but I think legendary cards should have a good thing about them and should impact the game in a meaningful way since I have spent my currency upgrading to this point just for it to fall off completely. You are right in the fact that all classes have bad cards and cards that are overshadowed by stronger variants, but I think it would help replay ability and enjoyment if I could build something different when i start a new run or if I get offered only certain cards then i can make something of it instead of I didn't get anything that gets me to shrapnel, I'm not getting offered many arrow cards, I'm getting carried until my build comes online over an hour into the run. I think I am focusing on the debuffs too much but I can't understand why quarrels need shaky hands whenever you play them, lowering your damage when most of the time you can hit 2 monsters for a low damage, which gets lower with each play. Compare it to Book rip on the mage, 5 damage AOE with no downsides, actually a good thing as it draws you 1 card per active book and you can start with this card, maybe 2 of them with chocolate box. Seems that other classes are getting more love than others, I do focus on mage a lot but from playing they seem to have everything and be good at it. Maybe I focus on arrows and quarrels so much I don't use bombs, which may be the great part about this class, like you said they are fun to use early but fall off late in endless, but that's every class atm.

Rogue just isn't a very strong class. I only enjoyed it with secret stash + shrapnel + the card that makes talon arrows into concussion arrows. Even then the dmg isnt that great late game but I never perfected it yet either. Might go well with that relic that adds dmg to your attacks based on the gems you've accumulated. I have't tried quarrel but I know Rogue has influence/skill cards that play on tired or shaky hands too that I haven't looked into yet.

But I'll throw some stuff out about warrior too.

you have 3 ways you can play it, maybe 2 but ultimately only 1.

JI attacks - makes him a great far range attacker but its crap late game. basically useless

Swords - maybe something up your ally, couple this with a bunch of crowns or better buff cards and you can use 0 mana shadow strike to deadly effect plus other cards that make use of sword cards in deck for damage. Lacks AOE

BLOCK. literally the only way to play this class. A deck mostly built on skill cards with 2 breakthroughs and 2 turtle ups or OX cards can clean the floor. you'll eventually hit 32k block and deal that out as AOE dmg in a cone. AMAZING.

What I didn't mention in those is all the legendary cards that I ignore to built those decks. For instance, whack em all is a 3 mana card with -1 mana on focus. Seems like a good deal in early game but it sucks ass just like fractural whip with the mage.

Another is death mark or something, apply 1 mark and if they're already marked, deal 5 damage... Sure it better than just apply mark but honestly its a card being played for 1 mana to increase dmg on targets by a factor of 1 - its trash.

Death Scythe I think, another really bad legendary card - kill all monsters with 10 HP or less for 2 mana... It's literally useless. Reverse dmg, gut punch, serrated blade etc.

The list goes on, you have to to look at the cards your class gets plus the relics you need and build it. Just because the cards are legendary/gold doesn't mean they're always superior. For instance, I keep the card "LIFT" instead of upgrading it because I find it very good.

Choose the upgrade cards path, choose the relics path, choose REMOVE CARDS path.. Don't be afraid to spend gems on the cards that will carry you and get rid of the cards you don't need ASAP.

PS the dev's do offer you a way to start your next run differently with relics from the start. When you play a class long enough you'll get veteran pin and box of chocolates. It's worth it to use one of these because you'll start with better cards.

[Frog]

Originally posted by Systemz:

Originally posted by Frog:

Interesting, I did have a major oversight with sleeve trick and then secret stash or other cards that generate talon arrows, that would be a strong build, amazing if you could get shrapnel on top. I will stick to my point of emergency tonic not performing as it should and do believe it needs a change. It is legendary but I think legendary cards should have a good thing about them and should impact the game in a meaningful way since I have spent my currency upgrading to this point just for it to fall off completely. You are right in the fact that all classes have bad cards and cards that are overshadowed by stronger variants, but I think it would help replay ability and enjoyment if I could build something different when i start a new run or if I get offered only certain cards then i can make something of it instead of I didn't get anything that gets me to shrapnel, I'm not getting offered many arrow cards, I'm getting carried until my build comes online over an hour into the run. I think I am focusing on the debuffs too much but I can't understand why quarrels need shaky hands whenever you play them, lowering your damage when most of the time you can hit 2 monsters for a low damage, which gets lower with each play. Compare it to Book rip on the mage, 5 damage AOE with no downsides, actually a good thing as it draws you 1 card per active book and you can start with this card, maybe 2 of them with chocolate box. Seems that other classes are getting more love than others, I do focus on mage a lot but from playing they seem to have everything and be good at it. Maybe I focus on arrows and quarrels so much I don't use bombs, which may be the great part about this class, like you said they are fun to use early but fall off late in endless, but that's every class atm.

Rogue just isn't a very strong class. I only enjoyed it with secret stash + shrapnel + the card that makes talon arrows into concussion arrows. Even then the dmg isnt that great late game but I never perfected it yet either. Might go well with that relic that adds dmg to your attacks based on the gems you've accumulated. I have't tried quarrel but I know Rogue has influence/skill cards that play on tired or shaky hands too that I haven't looked into yet.

But I'll throw some stuff out about warrior too.

you have 3 ways you can play it, maybe 2 but ultimately only 1.

JI attacks - makes him a great far range attacker but its crap late game. basically useless

Swords - maybe something up your ally, couple this with a bunch of crowns or better buff cards and you can use 0 mana shadow strike to deadly effect plus other cards that make use of sword cards in deck for damage. Lacks AOE

BLOCK. literally the only way to play this class. A deck mostly built on skill cards with 2 breakthroughs and 2 turtle ups or OX cards can clean the floor. you'll eventually hit 32k block and deal that out as AOE dmg in a cone. AMAZING.

What I didn't mention in those is all the legendary cards that I ignore to built those decks. For instance, whack em all is a 3 mana card with -1 mana on focus. Seems like a good deal in early game but it sucks ass just like fractural whip with the mage.

Another is death mark or something, apply 1 mark and if they're already marked, deal 5 damage... Sure it better than just apply mark but honestly its a card being played for 1 mana to increase dmg on targets by a factor of 1 - its trash.

Death Scythe I think, another really bad legendary card - kill all monsters with 10 HP or less for 2 mana... It's literally useless. Reverse dmg, gut punch, serrated blade etc.

The list goes on, you have to to look at the cards your class gets plus the relics you need and build it. Just because the cards are legendary/gold doesn't mean they're always superior. For instance, I keep the card "LIFT" instead of upgrading it because I find it very good.

Choose the upgrade cards path, choose the relics path, choose REMOVE CARDS path.. Don't be afraid to spend gems on the cards that will carry you and get rid of the cards you don't need ASAP.

PS the dev's do offer you a way to start your next run differently with relics from the start. When you play a class long enough you'll get veteran pin and box of chocolates. It's worth it to use one of these because you'll start with better cards.

At the end of the day, all classes should be able to compete with one another. Me and my friends shouldn't of had to be 3 mages to beat torment 20 because freeze is so strong and stun is weak in comparison. Rouge does need a touch up somewhere to help her compete and maybe warrior too if you think he only has 1 viable build. Things for the Devs to consider for future patches

[Frog]

Thanks all for your input, It's been very interesting to read you responses. We'll see if the devs have any take on this in the future

[Middle Twin]

My biggest complaint about rogue is Secret Stash. Its effect is substantially worse than Risky Draw's, but as compensation it also costs more! And also requires an extra upgrade to boot!

[Konstanty]

Devs are reading this thread carefully, that's good feedback stuff

[TheAcidicDragon]

I agree