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How about cards that can allow you to survive after playing 4 cards?
I don't play limitless but card making all opponents freeze will be useful here for once.
Probably 4 cards per round might end up being a little more problematic than having 10 cards with 3 players ( it always come down to kill the pope and then cycle to kill everything else. Archer is probably always the best choice to kill them, regardless the rng on their incoming damage ).
Oh yeah the very constructive "haha git gud" kind of comment. Always nice to see.
To be honest, victory or defeat, the antipope feels bad every time in my opinion. Even without going infinite, many builds can rely on playing some combinations of card that require more than 4 cards and you're screwed.
It's a shame that so many fun deck ideas (even excluding infinite) just get wrecked by one single boss while other bosses can make it harder to use your deck but not impossible.
tl:dr : I can agree the boss is very annoying and unfun to play against when compared to the two others.
It's a "may I help" or "let's discuss it" type of comments.
To be interesting, to be interactive game supposed to have certain challenge.
The point of pope is specifically to counteract infinite loop based decks, and in this game it is extremely easy to make this type of deck as you can upgrade cards in several different ways. Especially if you get unlimited amount of rewards on unlimited levels of infinite stages.
I really didn't played infinite, since I usually want some concrete goal but the concept suggest infinite scaling of enemy health and attack? Then you will lose anyways, pope or not.
So you can play balanced 12 stages mode with torments for ability to win.
And if you want to actually challenge yourself with infinite - then you do need to account for different challenges, including limited cards challenge.
From the other side many can find cook unpleasant because he didn't allow them to kill him first turn.
Or some may dislike round robin system of archdemon even more, since when you don't play alone it does same that pope does and more if your team is not coordinated.
In the end challenge is the very point of playing the game, and wether you will feel bad about it is your choice.
Lets take a bomb rogue. You need:
- generate enough armor to survive (can be done with a specific card)
- place a bomb
- do something else like playing an infuence.
Then, next round, you need to, again:
- generate enouh armor to survive (so you really need multiple copies of it and hope you draw them)
- detonante a bomb
- set a bomb
...
And since you can't really scale, and need to deal 200+ damage to the pope, with the pope summoning other stuff .... well, it can become quite problematic really fast.
Stun? you would need to stun the whole board, and Pope loves summoning stuff. Also, only works every other turn, and pope loves attacking twice in a row.
Tinker doesn't look better either.
The main issue here, is, that you need get that much armor, then deal some damage, all while you are limited to a certain number.
You are an archer? Well, shame you generate 4+ arrows, you can't play them all!
Meanhwile, the other bosses are ... weak. Sure, the cook can be annoying, but he still allows you to draw more cards, gain mana, and look for specific cards to generate block / stun / freeze. I generally get decks quite fast that are basically impossible to loose - except I hit the Pope.
So, the Pope is overtuned, counters too many builds, while the other bosses are too easy and barely counter anything. Except ... they are together with the Antipope.
Not sure how to change pope and the other bosses. Maybe pope can instead count 'card draws' instead of card played? This would still allow you to vomit your hand.
I mean, I get it, pope requires more care and strategy - my problem, though, is, that multiple builds simply have no way to counter it, at least on floor 24+
Agree with pretty much everything you said, the build required to defeat a Pope at higher levels of endless becomes extremely specific which narrows the gameplay to only trying to counter 1 boss to progress further.
In the fight I lost to Pope he had over 500 hp and the board was full of 100+hp enemies that all attack for quite high numbers, I was playing arrow rogue and there was really nothing I could do to clear the fight using only 4 cards, I survived for 2 turns and died.
The balance between solo, duo and full party is the bigger problem with Pope, with 10 cards you could deal with Pope having resources of 3 classes for a while even on higher difficulties, but doing anything less than full party becomes very hard with only being able to use 4 or 7 cards.
You know there is solo mode with companions?
Of course pope counter archer. It's literally his point.
If we return to the basics that spawn this genre it would be rlay the spyre.
In this game there were three main hero with three main mechanics.
Exhaust infinite warrior
Multicard shiv generating rouge
Power spamming automaton.
And final bosses were
Time master that created to counter specifically rouge by preventing lots of cards playing
Exhaust infinite countering donut and rumb that fill your deck with garbage cards
Awakened that was infinitely scaling with each power countering defect.
In hellcard
Cook is a weaker analog of rube meant to counter small decks but way weaker in this department
Pope is an analog of time master meant to counter multicard classes
And archdemon is more of a specific dynamic guy.
They exist to specifically challenge primitive decks to make you compose them more balanced.
You can freeze entire screen like wizard and destroy all summons with one card. You can also deal damage equal to half of your hp that can be a lot as it scales with hp and replenish it later.
If you go into party mode solo it is unreasonable to complain that you lose because of not having teammates when the game is balanced around you having those and playing coordinated with them.
In general this game us already pretty easy and you lose outside of infinite only due to dire luck or teammates that actively ruin your game.
Look, when I pass a certain point, I tend to auto-win every fight except pope, because my endless scaling is just that insane. The mini-boss that increases the cost of skill cards is the second biggest challlenge - but Pope is often simply the end.
Compared to other bosses, it is unbalanced. The Demon guy has good frontloading damage with his summons, but once these are dead, he gets easier.
The Cook is mostly annoying, making you to take extra turns - except later on when you have enough artifacts that deal damage, like Glass Caltrops.
And then there is the Pope. Suddenly, instead of playing 10+ cards easily, I am stuck with way less. Each card is crucial. Mistakes are punished by death. And if I play solo? Yeah, it is even worse. Why is it worse for a solo player? Why SHOULD it be worse?
TL;DR: Other bosses need something to become dangerous, but anti pope needs to be toned down in return.
It's literally reason for you to balance your deck.
Yes you autowin anything very quickly if you are not given challenge but what is the point if your actions are not in any ways depend on your opponent? Where is the actual game?
Such challenges exists exactly so you would actually play the game, not autowin by default.
How do you think decks based on killing all enemies first turn due to massive damage and no defence or based on infinite draw of cards and play fare against cook?
How often do you think I lost to the archidemon when I was playing with teammates when I would easily kill him alone?
You only think that archdemon is weaker than pope because you play solo, and don't have teammate that can play like ond or two cards if at all, and then you can play 2-3 cards max. That's less than pope. So why do you think pope is stronger if archdemon does the same but even stronger?
The issue isn't that I don't auto-win against the pope. My issue is that I auto-win against non-pope and have a high chance to loose against pope.
No matter which build, chances are I have a deck that wants to play more than 4 cards to do stuff. All classes have mana cheat cards. All classes have draw cards. And many have quite a few 0 cost cards to play.
Robin Round only becomes more problematic compared to anti-pope when you have no one that can grant cards and or energy. Which is pretty rare all in all. The most issues I have with that is when we have multiple Tinkers, since these can draw hands where they can't play anything. No, that one becomes multiple times more scary when combined with the Antipope - where you already only have a few cards you are allowed to play ... and if you can't do it freely, you may not be able to play a specific cards before others....
re: "How do you think decks based on killing all enemies first turn due to massive damage and no defence or based on infinite draw of cards and play fare against cook?"
There are multiple tools. Stun and freeze are the most obvious, or you can deal contraption/influence/artifact damage to circumvent the damage cap. So, yes, these decks fare quite well against the cook. But the same can't be said about the Antipope - that one would destroy this kind of deck hilariously easy. Since, you know, you can't kill all enemies within the card limit after a certain floor is reached.
There are the same tools vs antipope - control and freeze tools that will allow you play after 4 cards. You just can't completely abandon turns like in other cases.
And I'm not sure I remember how many cards you can play? Wasn't it more than four when you don't play solo?
it is ... I think, 4/7/10. Still means that per hero you get 4 cards in solo, less in MP. MP just has the advantage of having more cards to choose from.
Thing is, the limit means you can't sift through your deck. I ain't gonna put 5 freeze cards in my deck to increase the chance to have one each turn against the pope. Especially since you need a mass freeze against all the summons, which is a legendary.
Against the cook, a single freeze/stun card would be enough, since you can kill the summons - just not the cook itself. So, no, you can have a pure damage deck sprinkled with some stuns/freeze (that still deal damage, like the garbage arrows or the freeze mage attack), while this is not enough for the pope.
And this is my issue. I can't think of a deck that is countered by the other bosses, but not by the pope. The pope is a catch-them-all.
You compare it to the time-keeper. The Time-Keeper was different - it still punished you for spamming cards, true, but it wasn't a death-sentence if you had such a deck. It was problematic, but still doable. Pope feels different. If you have the wrong deck, your run ends.
That said, most of my impressions come from the endless mode, and pope may be less scary in normal runs. I still think that even there the pope is more dangerous, but with the right companions (freeze mage), ....