Endless - Floor 24 Antipope is unfair / almost impossible?

[Grendal]

I was playing Endless mode with my friends (1 of each class) and we've found it impossible to kill the antipope before we all die to a massive amount of damage. We've only made two run attempts, but we did try some savescumming just to see if it was possible with a better draw. Just couldn't kill him before inevitable death.

It's even harder if Archdemon shows up instead of Cook or something because then stamina burst doesn't work, significantly limiting single target damage potential of the Warrior. We had really good decks and relics in both runs too, the 10 card limit is just insane to deal with. A rogue with Vanish helps a lot to live to a second turn if the monsters aren't immune to stun, but only a second turn. Usually they're immune to freeze as well so the mage can't help there either. The only flaw I could think of was that the Warrior didn't have Reverse in either run, which could be one of the only cards that could possibly do enough damage in a turn or two. The Rogue also didn't have Clout, which would definitely let us live another turn.

I don't know, it just seems like there are too few outs for a seemingly unfair gimmick at that floor level. Not sure how it could be balanced either, maybe the card limit could scale with the floor in Endless? I haven't seen anyone else complaining though, so maybe we're just bad at building good decks?

[_Q_]

We had a similar experience. In our case, we had the torment that doesn't allow you to play freeze cards. That plus a 10 card limit essentially renders the fight impossible.

I've never been a fan of the card limiting effects of the Antipope and Archdemon. I feel like they're just a cheap artificial counter to deck cycling builds that are encouraged throughout the rest of the game.

[Konstanty]

Thank you for taking the time to write down the feedback Duly noted - I have added a task to discuss this with the team and balance guys are aware of this. We will see how to address this!

Of course, if anyone else has thoughts on this please chip in!

[Caliphate]

I agree with the Original commenter in a sense. You can one-turn OTK the Anti-pope with the right build, ive done it with a two person comp a few times. That being said I have had runs end because of the inability freeze for 7 floors made my whole build useless.

I think the problem is that the devs have designed into a corner, where cards are too powerful, so they are built around, and then in endless because they are so powerful they are just made useless from the debuffs. this applies doubly with the anti-popes card limiting which more comps unplayable. This all railroads you eventually into running specific scaling builds.

I think another look should be given on how endless becomes progressively harder, and how card design makes things so powerful that they must be countered by game mechanics or else the player just wins.

[Konstanty]

Originally posted by Caliphate:

I agree with the Original commenter in a sense. You can one-turn OTK the Anti-pope with the right build, ive done it with a two person comp a few times. That being said I have had runs end because of the inability freeze for 7 floors made my whole build useless.

I think the problem is that the devs have designed into a corner, where cards are too powerful, so they are built around, and then in endless because they are so powerful they are just made useless from the debuffs. this applies doubly with the anti-popes card limiting which more comps unplayable. This all railroads you eventually into running specific scaling builds.

I think another look should be given on how endless becomes progressively harder, and how card design makes things so powerful that they must be countered by game mechanics or else the player just wins.

Part of the idea was to allow such powerful builds since they are part of the experience. However keeping them reined in poses its unique set of challenges, that's true Given enough time and intra-deck mobility eventually everyone can arrive at any build. We are working on changes to endless modifiers and balance. A lot of good ideas came in the feedback already - like ramping up torments. We also have a couple of other ideas we want to try.

As more mechanics are added to the game more difficulty-adjusting tools we will have at our disposal. And more interesting builds will be possible.

[Ma7hiu5]

you thought 24 was bad (we did at first, and the cook is a tough cookie to beat) fast approaching 32, and limited with 10 max block, immune to stun and freeze and have the pacifist torment so every kill is a status card.... its almost a run killer :D
But when all three characters have great builds its amazing to wipe out a level on the first turn, even when odds are stacked against you... its very tough and challenging...which I like...

[Grendal]

As an update, we did manage to get a really good run with no pope at 24 (though we probably could have done it), and easily beat him up in one turn at 36 and 48, and we're pretty much unstoppable at this point. We could probably just keep going but it takes a long time to finish each floor lol and its super laggy with all the cards playing and being drawn. If we happen to not have the 10 block torment, we can just stack 32k block and end turn to kill everything with caltrops instantly. I think we have all the good relics as well. As I thought, clout and reverse were what we needed for the boss floors. Glass Shrike on mage was pretty good as well.