[SPOILER] Why did Ethan decide not to work with Heisenberg?

[Spartan]

His reasoning seemed decent, even Miranda said he had lost the lead when death happened with Heisenberg..

[Gracey Face]

Messaggio originale di eglepe:

My ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ god dude, I don't need more reasons than "the guy has a literal factory of human experiments" to think he's an evil POS, nobody does

He is surrounded by 3 "people" who casually kill off random people as part of some stupid experiments and the corpses they discard to try to create an army to kill those 3 people. Is this evil?

Regardless this isn't a valid reason not to trust him. You established that he is evil. Evil is not insane. Evil is not untrustworthy. Additionally literally everyone in this game is insane, so something like this isn't that striking.

(Should be pointed out, it is suggested but never stated that he later moves on to live subjects.)

Messaggio originale di Coronacop:

If you honestly believe crazy people can be trusted on their word, don't be shocked when the proverbial leopard ends up eating your face.

It's not about word it's about motive. That being said crazy people can be trusted on their word unless they're irrational, which Heisenberg is never established as being.

Also he objectively didn't make the right call as Miranda wins. Miranda feeds Rose to the megamycete. The thing that both Ethan and Heisenberg were trying to prevent. If it wasn't for Rose essentially being a demigod she'd have "died" then and there.

[eglepe]

Messaggio originale di Uosdwis R. Dawoh:

Messaggio originale di eglepe:

My ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ god dude, I don't need more reasons than "the guy has a literal factory of human experiments" to think he's an evil POS, nobody does

He is surrounded by 3 "people" who casually kill off random people as part of some stupid experiments and the corpses they discard to try to create an army to kill those 3 people. Is this evil?

Yes.

Also, where's your evidence that poor Karl Heisenberg is making do with the others' leftovers? If we're making assumptions, a proper experiment seeks to eliminate any external factors that might contaminate the results. So you wouldn't re-experiment on failed experiments, you'd get uncontaminated, fresh specimens.

In either case, he's evil. All you're arguing about is to what degree.

Regardless this isn't a valid reason not to trust him. You established that he is evil. Evil is not insane. Evil is not untrustworthy. Additionally literally everyone in this game is insane, so something like this isn't that striking.

(Should be pointed out, it is suggested but never stated that he later moves on to live subjects.)

Being evil is enough reason not to collaborate or align yourself with someone, it's not about trustworthiness.

Regardless, evil is self-serving and power hungry, therefore also untrustworthy.

[Gracey Face]

Messaggio originale di eglepe:

Also, where's your evidence that poor Karl Heisenberg is making do with the others' leftovers? If we're making assumptions, a proper experiment seeks to eliminate any external factors that might contaminate the results. So you wouldn't re-experiment on failed experiments, you'd get uncontaminated, fresh specimens.

He states in his experimentation logs that he is having poor results and suspects it is from the use of corpses. The only thing that makes sense from this is that he is using the others leftovers as if he was "making his own corpses" he wouldn't be making them in the first place, and also it would be less efficient.

Being evil is enough reason not to collaborate or align yourself with someone, it's not about trustworthiness. Regardless, evil is self-serving and power hungry, therefore also untrustworthy.

No. No it's not. Especially when your child's life is on the line lmao. And yes he may be self serving and power hungry, but that still is not a reason to not side with him it just means you need to ensure that your goals align (which in this instance they do.)

His goal is to reassemble Rose, like Ethan wants to, and then kill Miranda, like Ethan wants to. The only difference is that Ethan doesn't want to "use Rose's power" to fight Miranda for some inexplicable reason. Except as the game plays out because Ethan is grossly incompetent he ends up doing it anyway because Miranda feeds Rose to the megamycete.


I don't understand why I need to explain this stuff. It's in the game.

[eglepe]

Messaggio originale di Uosdwis R. Dawoh:

Messaggio originale di eglepe:

Also, where's your evidence that poor Karl Heisenberg is making do with the others' leftovers? If we're making assumptions, a proper experiment seeks to eliminate any external factors that might contaminate the results. So you wouldn't re-experiment on failed experiments, you'd get uncontaminated, fresh specimens.

He states in his experimentation logs that he is having poor results and suspects it is from the use of corpses. The only thing that makes sense from this is that he is using the others leftovers as if he was "making his own corpses" he wouldn't be making them in the first place, and also it would be less efficient.

He states in his experimentation notes that he implanted the Cadou, so these were not already mutated leftovers. He just started from corpses for whatever reason, maybe he thought they'd be easier to control, maybe he thought the mutation would be more consistent, maybe it's because he's a Frankenstein reference.

Being evil is enough reason not to collaborate or align yourself with someone, it's not about trustworthiness. Regardless, evil is self-serving and power hungry, therefore also untrustworthy.

No. No it's not.

Yeah, well, you're not Ethan. Other than a few weird people in this topic, most of us think "he's evil" is reason enough. And Ethan as basically a shounen protagonist is never gonna side with someone like that

[Gracey Face]

Messaggio originale di eglepe:

Messaggio originale di Uosdwis R. Dawoh:

He states in his experimentation logs that he is having poor results and suspects it is from the use of corpses. The only thing that makes sense from this is that he is using the others leftovers as if he was "making his own corpses" he wouldn't be making them in the first place, and also it would be less efficient.

He states in his experimentation notes that he implanted the Cadou, so these were not already mutated leftovers. He just started from corpses for whatever reason, maybe he thought they'd be easier to control, maybe he thought the mutation would be more consistent, maybe it's because he's a Frankenstein reference.

No. No it's not.

Yeah, well, you're not Ethan. Other than a few weird people in this topic, most of us think "he's evil" is reason enough. And Ethan as basically a shounen protagonist is never gonna side with someone like that

Why are you arguing with me when you haven't read the files..?

He implants CADOU REACTORS. Which are based on his specific cadou being able to generate electricity and so being able to motivate corpses. Which is why them having been previously infected doesn't matter as he's not trying to mutate them he's trying to turn them into automatons.

It's why he never talks about cadou suitability or mutations like the others do. Because he isn't doing that.


And me not being Ethan or Ethan being some gibberish has no bearing on how nonsensical his actions are. A character being too stupid to realise how stupid their actions are (which is Ethan to a tee) doesn't mean the actions aren't stupid.

[Jman]

Messaggio originale di eglepe:

My ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ god dude, I don't need more reasons than "the guy has a literal factory of human experiments" to think he's an evil POS, nobody does

Not to mention he told Ethan he will see Rose in the afterlife, meaning he was eventually going to kill her.

[rina]

Messaggio originale di Uosdwis R. Dawoh:

Messaggio originale di eglepe:

He states in his experimentation notes that he implanted the Cadou, so these were not already mutated leftovers. He just started from corpses for whatever reason, maybe he thought they'd be easier to control, maybe he thought the mutation would be more consistent, maybe it's because he's a Frankenstein reference.


Yeah, well, you're not Ethan. Other than a few weird people in this topic, most of us think "he's evil" is reason enough. And Ethan as basically a shounen protagonist is never gonna side with someone like that

Why are you arguing with me when you haven't read the files..?

He implants CADOU REACTORS. Which are based on his specific cadou being able to generate electricity and so being able to motivate corpses. Which is why them having been previously infected doesn't matter as he's not trying to mutate them he's trying to turn them into automatons.

It's why he never talks about cadou suitability or mutations like the others do. Because he isn't doing that.


And me not being Ethan or Ethan being some gibberish has no bearing on how nonsensical his actions are. A character being too stupid to realise how stupid their actions are (which is Ethan to a tee) doesn't mean the actions aren't stupid.

I totally agree that Ethan is a fool. Many of his actions are illogical. All he does is yell, " I need to save Rose!" And in the end, he still DOESN'T save her. That is everything he did is meaningless. Perhaps with Heisenberg, he would have had a chance to prevent the ritual ALTOGETHER.

[Gracey Face]

Messaggio originale di rina:

I totally agree that Ethan is a fool. Many of his actions are illogical. All he does is yell, " I need to save Rose!" And in the end, he still DOESN'T save her. That is everything he did is meaningless. Perhaps with Heisenberg, he would have had a chance to prevent the ritual ALTOGETHER.

Yeah like I said earlier you could completely remove Ethan from the game and the outcome would be the same because Ethan was so useless. But him refusing Heisenberg's offer was like the most obvious stupid mistake he made.

[Alyx]

Messaggio originale di Uosdwis R. Dawoh:

Messaggio originale di rina:

I totally agree that Ethan is a fool. Many of his actions are illogical. All he does is yell, " I need to save Rose!" And in the end, he still DOESN'T save her. That is everything he did is meaningless. Perhaps with Heisenberg, he would have had a chance to prevent the ritual ALTOGETHER.

Yeah like I said earlier you could completely remove Ethan from the game and the outcome would be the same because Ethan was so useless. But him refusing Heisenberg's offer was like the most obvious stupid mistake he made.

We can agree on this at least. Everything ethan did towards heisenberg was ethan simply being a dumbass...

[: D]

because heisenberg = bad guy. duh

[Xengre]

Messaggio originale di Uosdwis R. Dawoh:

Messaggio originale di Xengre:

Your geometric diagram doesn't account for how the mechanics work here. This doesn't have a gap the way you think. That path was carved by the grinder and those spikes scrape into the wall and floor as we can see clearly.

They actually don't. This is what I said by the trap phasing in to the wall. The wall is cleanly cut and even braced up with wood. Meaning it was built. It also means the cubby was there INTENTIONALLY.

So in order for the trap to dig in that would mean it had never been test ran, which is silly. It also then makes the cubby hole nonsensical and also makes the trap stopping when it does nonsense as the rails the trap is running down run fight in to the cubbyhole you're hiding in so if it has the power to chip away at the rock face (which it isn't shown as doing, there's no debris generated) then it would still kill you in the cubby hole.

The rock face is what stops it, and if so then getting down will save you and once again the trap is designed to be survived.


The basic TL:DR is that this game is garbage lmao.

Messaggio originale di Xengre:

Heisenberg's core fault was repeatedly underestimating Ethan which lead to his death, and the destruction of his factory. Why would he allow an enemy to survive and bust up his factory?

Except he never underestimates Ethan's ability to survive :D. You even specifically said sections where you beleive this to be the case and I pointed out that it isn't.

As for why he would let someone bust up his factory. Ethan is on a mission to rescue the thing that Heisenberg needs to defeat Miranda, since Ethan turned down his offer of coperation this means conflict is a probability. He doesn't want to be killed, but he also seemingly doesn't want to kill the guy. So he throws him in to his factory to delay him. There's also a second element to this which I almost forgot to mention in that Ethan isn't actually trying to bust up his factory. Ethan is legitimately just wandering around aimlessly (technically he is trying to escape to reach Miranda, but he takes such a random circuitous route that it is functionally aimless. This is to facilitate him encountering Chris, but that obviously isn't his intent). So the actual danger to the factory itself is minor, the main loss will be in the combat drones which are obviously disposable.

I mean he even says it in the penultimate encounter with him. "I have a rebellion to lead, stay out of my way." I mean Ethan is RIGHT THERE while Heisenberg is in his silly monster form. Heisenberg chooses to throw him into a lake while telling him "don't come back" instead of using his giant circular saw on Ethan. And you're saying Heisenberg wants to kill Ethan? When he purposefully chooses not to attack him, repeatedly..?


Honestly it's kind of amazing to me, the amount of people who seem to have been playing this game with the sound turned off, or while asleep. Why am I the only one who remembers the dialogue and cutscenes?

You actually, very literally, see massive chunks of rock being ripped from the ground and sparks flying everywhere from the grinder since it is set to run a specific path. The wood is due to the place being carved out by the grinder and then later modified to brace the environment to prevent collapse due to the grinder's activity and reduced support of missing rock. Either the artists messed up which explains a lot of details there (most notably the angular ground to wall spot that doesn't match the grinder) and/or some workers then carved a bit of extra space for the wooden braces (but there are some issues with art design here regardless). It is possible this recess got chunked away by the grinder due to whatever support (weak and easily crumbled, massive root mixed in pulling the weak structure causing it to collapse, and other explanations) or possibly even a worker created it as a safety net in case of an accident. We don't actually know. What we can take away here is Heisenberg did not personally set this up but had others set it up for him and he did not have a low level management of it and know about the hole. This guy doesn't do these menial tasks and if you think he does you clearly don't know his character, not to mention the craftmenship is too low grade for what he does and lacks metal involved in areas that would have it. Also, as proven he expected Ethan to be dead and he knew who Ethan was at that point. Even if he had walked through to do a basic quick check of the obstacle course at some point he might have assumed that Ethan, like most people, would have panic and not noticed or considered to utilize that spot to survive during the stress of death and pressure occurring in a panic.

You seem to think this was some conspiracy by Heisenberg to allow Ethan to survive and then what? That doesn't even make sense and the people who seem to think this have only one element supporting this in, literally, the entire game... a tiny spot that a person could fit in. In addition, if that had been his goal he would have actually assisted. He did not.

No, he quite literally explicitly admits to having underestimated Ethan thinking he wouldn't have survived. I gave you direct quotes from him so how could you state anything otherwise? That doesn't even make sense. This is a little too extreme case of denial.

Originally they all thought he died to the grinder so so Lady D was surprised he was still alive later when he was found.

In addition, I'm not sure how you think he "never underestimated Ethan's ability to survive" when he literally says as you reach the factory location from the bridge:

"I didn't think you'd make it past Donna or Moreau, but I suppose you survived worse back in America, hm?"

Then again, you also thought he didn't know about Ethan prior to the Gauntlet despite calling out his exact name and the group knowing about Rose because you missed key details that occurred after he got dragged into that room just like you've missed about Heisenberg's personality.

Heisenberg then explicitly says he knows Ethan is being sent to kill HIM but he wanted to recruit Ethan. That didn't go well so he kicked Ethan down into the lower level and, once again, underestimates Ethan's ability to survive the situation and assumes he would die. You still can't explain why he kicked Ethan into his factory. He absolutely does want to kill Ethan after he declined the invitation to work together and use Rose. Clearly, your grasp of Hesienberg's character is quite limited. I take it interpreting works like Shakespeare isn't your forte... but c'mon. At least listen and be somewhat rationale. Heisenberg sends tons of stuff to kill Ethan and inevitable destruction has to happen to one of the party's sides. Even worse, Heisenberg needs that stuff to fight Miranda but Ethan is busting it up like crazy and obviously would if he is going to survive and the stuff is being sent his way because, once again, he underestimated Ethan's ability to survive. Then the same happens in their final fight and Heisenberg is still in shocked denial how he is dying to Ethan completely unwilling to accept it in his final monologue.

Even the Duke warns Ethan of Heisenberg and states him to be the biggest threat to Ethan of the four and Duke is extremely informed about the situations there.

No, in the factory he didn't just knock Ethan aside to let him live and you are distorting the context. What actually happened is he walked in saying:

"You're persistent, but I've got a rebellion to lead...
...so stay out of my way.
Don't. Come. Back!"

Then he knocks him off attacking with a massive sawblade and causing Ethan to plummet hundreds of feet and have massive amounts of debris such as giant crane parts collapsing onto his location from well up above which would have killed any normal person, hence the way he phrases his statement because he is sending Ethan off to die and doesn't expect him to return. You completely misunderstood. Even Miranda didn't understand his ability to survive and thought she killed him, much less Heisenberg who had implicitly and explicitly stated surprise at his survival multiple times, as well as other characters. Heisenberg likely had no idea that water was necessarily right there but in normal circumstance it wouldn't have mattered as hitting the water like that would kill the average human, don't even mention the debris falling to finish the job.

You obviously played the game, but you've clearly missed multiple points of dialogue and have also missed a vast amount of detail and have limited understanding of the character's personalities. What is even more jarring is your looking down on others about their understanding when you don't even have the most basic grasp of the character's personalities much less other intricacies in the game's world building, plot, and design.

[Gracey Face]

Messaggio originale di Xengre:

You actually, very literally, see massive chunks of rock being ripped from the ground and sparks flying everywhere from the grinder since it is set to run a specific path.

You actually don't. But even if you did you know the ground and the wall are two different things right?

Messaggio originale di Xengre:

You seem to think this was some conspiracy by Heisenberg to allow Ethan to survive and then what?

It's not that this is what I think, it is that this is what is shown in game. Even you yourself acknowledge it but you make excuses like "Well I guess the devs were just too stupid to model the trap area properly".

Which might actually be true, but if you're to the point where the game is so badly designed that you can't tell what is happening from what you're shown then that's acknowledging that the game shows that you should have worked with Heisenberg anyway.

[Alyx]

Messaggio originale di Xengre:

Messaggio originale di Uosdwis R. Dawoh:

They actually don't. This is what I said by the trap phasing in to the wall. The wall is cleanly cut and even braced up with wood. Meaning it was built. It also means the cubby was there INTENTIONALLY.

So in order for the trap to dig in that would mean it had never been test ran, which is silly. It also then makes the cubby hole nonsensical and also makes the trap stopping when it does nonsense as the rails the trap is running down run fight in to the cubbyhole you're hiding in so if it has the power to chip away at the rock face (which it isn't shown as doing, there's no debris generated) then it would still kill you in the cubby hole.

The rock face is what stops it, and if so then getting down will save you and once again the trap is designed to be survived.


The basic TL:DR is that this game is garbage lmao.



Except he never underestimates Ethan's ability to survive :D. You even specifically said sections where you beleive this to be the case and I pointed out that it isn't.

As for why he would let someone bust up his factory. Ethan is on a mission to rescue the thing that Heisenberg needs to defeat Miranda, since Ethan turned down his offer of coperation this means conflict is a probability. He doesn't want to be killed, but he also seemingly doesn't want to kill the guy. So he throws him in to his factory to delay him. There's also a second element to this which I almost forgot to mention in that Ethan isn't actually trying to bust up his factory. Ethan is legitimately just wandering around aimlessly (technically he is trying to escape to reach Miranda, but he takes such a random circuitous route that it is functionally aimless. This is to facilitate him encountering Chris, but that obviously isn't his intent). So the actual danger to the factory itself is minor, the main loss will be in the combat drones which are obviously disposable.

I mean he even says it in the penultimate encounter with him. "I have a rebellion to lead, stay out of my way." I mean Ethan is RIGHT THERE while Heisenberg is in his silly monster form. Heisenberg chooses to throw him into a lake while telling him "don't come back" instead of using his giant circular saw on Ethan. And you're saying Heisenberg wants to kill Ethan? When he purposefully chooses not to attack him, repeatedly..?


Honestly it's kind of amazing to me, the amount of people who seem to have been playing this game with the sound turned off, or while asleep. Why am I the only one who remembers the dialogue and cutscenes?

You actually, very literally, see massive chunks of rock being ripped from the ground and sparks flying everywhere from the grinder since it is set to run a specific path. The wood is due to the place being carved out by the grinder and then later modified to brace the environment to prevent collapse due to the grinder's activity and reduced support of missing rock. Either the artists messed up which explains a lot of details there (most notably the angular ground to wall spot that doesn't match the grinder) and/or some workers then carved a bit of extra space for the wooden braces (but there are some issues with art design here regardless). It is possible this recess got chunked away by the grinder due to whatever support (weak and easily crumbled, massive root mixed in pulling the weak structure causing it to collapse, and other explanations) or possibly even a worker created it as a safety net in case of an accident. We don't actually know. What we can take away here is Heisenberg did not personally set this up but had others set it up for him and he did not have a low level management of it and know about the hole. This guy doesn't do these menial tasks and if you think he does you clearly don't know his character, not to mention the craftmenship is too low grade for what he does and lacks metal involved in areas that would have it. Also, as proven he expected Ethan to be dead and he knew who Ethan was at that point. Even if he had walked through to do a basic quick check of the obstacle course at some point he might have assumed that Ethan, like most people, would have panic and not noticed or considered to utilize that spot to survive during the stress of death and pressure occurring in a panic.

You seem to think this was some conspiracy by Heisenberg to allow Ethan to survive and then what? That doesn't even make sense and the people who seem to think this have only one element supporting this in, literally, the entire game... a tiny spot that a person could fit in. In addition, if that had been his goal he would have actually assisted. He did not.

No, he quite literally explicitly admits to having underestimated Ethan thinking he wouldn't have survived. I gave you direct quotes from him so how could you state anything otherwise? That doesn't even make sense. This is a little too extreme case of denial.

Originally they all thought he died to the grinder so so Lady D was surprised he was still alive later when he was found.

In addition, I'm not sure how you think he "never underestimated Ethan's ability to survive" when he literally says as you reach the factory location from the bridge:

"I didn't think you'd make it past Donna or Moreau, but I suppose you survived worse back in America, hm?"

Then again, you also thought he didn't know about Ethan prior to the Gauntlet despite calling out his exact name and the group knowing about Rose because you missed key details that occurred after he got dragged into that room just like you've missed about Heisenberg's personality.

Heisenberg then explicitly says he knows Ethan is being sent to kill HIM but he wanted to recruit Ethan. That didn't go well so he kicked Ethan down into the lower level and, once again, underestimates Ethan's ability to survive the situation and assumes he would die. You still can't explain why he kicked Ethan into his factory. He absolutely does want to kill Ethan after he declined the invitation to work together and use Rose. Clearly, your grasp of Hesienberg's character is quite limited. I take it interpreting works like Shakespeare isn't your forte... but c'mon. At least listen and be somewhat rationale. Heisenberg sends tons of stuff to kill Ethan and inevitable destruction has to happen to one of the party's sides. Even worse, Heisenberg needs that stuff to fight Miranda but Ethan is busting it up like crazy and obviously would if he is going to survive and the stuff is being sent his way because, once again, he underestimated Ethan's ability to survive. Then the same happens in their final fight and Heisenberg is still in shocked denial how he is dying to Ethan completely unwilling to accept it in his final monologue.

Even the Duke warns Ethan of Heisenberg and states him to be the biggest threat to Ethan of the four and Duke is extremely informed about the situations there.

No, in the factory he didn't just knock Ethan aside to let him live and you are distorting the context. What actually happened is he walked in saying:

"You're persistent, but I've got a rebellion to lead...
...so stay out of my way.
Don't. Come. Back!"

Then he knocks him off attacking with a massive sawblade and causing Ethan to plummet hundreds of feet and have massive amounts of debris such as giant crane parts collapsing onto his location from well up above which would have killed any normal person, hence the way he phrases his statement because he is sending Ethan off to die and doesn't expect him to return. You completely misunderstood. Even Miranda didn't understand his ability to survive and thought she killed him, much less Heisenberg who had implicitly and explicitly stated surprise at his survival multiple times, as well as other characters. Heisenberg likely had no idea that water was necessarily right there but in normal circumstance it wouldn't have mattered as hitting the water like that would kill the average human, don't even mention the debris falling to finish the job.

You obviously played the game, but you've clearly missed multiple points of dialogue and have also missed a vast amount of detail and have limited understanding of the character's personalities. What is even more jarring is your looking down on others about their understanding when you don't even have the most basic grasp of the character's personalities much less other intricacies in the game's world building, plot, and design.

I would'nt waste time arguing with that one about how obvious things are in the game for common sense thinking.

In another thread about the games plot, he's made it very easy to tell he has no intention of seeing or hearing anything other than his own interpretation of the game too the point he ignores parts and pieces or multiple points brought up.

He won't even reply to full posts, just picks out parts he can make an argument towards and then acts like he won against the entire post after.

[Xengre]

Messaggio originale di Alyx:

I would'nt waste time arguing with that one about how obvious things are in the game for common sense thinking.

In another thread about the games plot, he's made it very easy to tell he has no intention of seeing or hearing anything other than his own interpretation of the game too the point he ignores parts and pieces or multiple points brought up.

He won't even reply to full posts, just picks out parts he can make an argument towards and then acts like he won against the entire post after.

Seems you are probably right, thanks for heads up. Seems his most recent reply only further reinforces that, but he is probably mad after being dealt with in other threads by me and some others anyways. Guess I'll leave him be.

[Alyx]

Messaggio originale di Xengre:

Messaggio originale di Alyx:

I would'nt waste time arguing with that one about how obvious things are in the game for common sense thinking.

In another thread about the games plot, he's made it very easy to tell he has no intention of seeing or hearing anything other than his own interpretation of the game too the point he ignores parts and pieces or multiple points brought up.

He won't even reply to full posts, just picks out parts he can make an argument towards and then acts like he won against the entire post after.

Seems you are probably right, thanks for heads up. Seems his most recent reply only further reinforces that, but he is probably mad after being dealt with in other threads by me and some others anyways. Guess I'll leave him be.

Yeah. it's easier to just ignore those who have no intention of seeing or hearing anything other than ther own ideals.

If they lack the ability to hear anyone else opinion then best to just shut them off.

Someone even showed him the cutscenes and he still argued his own version of how the cutscene goes.