Updated build guides?

[CaimDark]

I restarted my abandoned playthrough from years ago and I'm using these guides for each character: https://www.thegamer.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous-woljif-builds/

I like them because they're straightforward and lore-friendly, which exactly what I want, I don't play above core, don't need need to min-max.

But it seems a lot has changed. Some spells just don't seem to work as they did anymore, or how I think I remember they did (are greater magic weapon and magical vestment basically useless now? I rmemeber them being pretty good). Some suggestions are just weird (Blink is among Woljif's useful spells list, for instance, then I read it, turns out it gives him 20% chance to miss, wut? No thanks!). Some suggested spells just aren't there anymore, or had their levels moved.

I hadn't noticed just how much was out of place until recently (level 7), I thought it was just my memory playing tricks on me.

Anyways, I'm still following these guides because I'm unfamiliar with the rulebook and I don't like the complexity and lore unfriendliness of multiclassing, which means my builds are probably getting a bit wonky. Are there similar guides anywhere updated for the latest patches?

[CaimDark]

Speaking of wonky guides, I was checking the guide for nenio it says selective spell is great with the likes of pit and grease, but description specifically says it only works with AoE instantaneous spells. I test it with pit. and lo and behold, it actually works. Wtf? Was that an update? A bug? The description is wrong?

[pete3great]

Publicado originalmente por CaimDark:

Speaking of wonky guides, I was checking the guide for nenio it says selective spell is great with the likes of pit and grease, but description specifically says it only works with AoE instantaneous spells. I test it with pit. and lo and behold, it actually works. Wtf? Was that an update? A bug? The description is wrong?

Working as intended, bug in the sense that the description isn't accurate. Now, the spell works that way on tabletop, where Owlcat copy and pasted the description from, but it was intentionally changed for the game. There are a lot of little things like that in the game. And absolutely, 100%, do not ever rely on the wiki. I've made that mistake myself.

As for OP, yeah. A lot of the builds you're going to find date back to alpha and don't work anything like they used to. Asking here for build ideas with specifics of what you're looking for is your best bet. Ignore anyone who tells you the only good builds need to rely on cheese to be unfair viable.

[Minneyar]

I mean, mathematically, Blink is overall a buff. You have a 20% chance of missing enemies, but they have a 50% chance of missing you. It's annoying when you miss, but on a character who's going to get attacked, especially a tank, it's statistically better than not having it.

[CaimDark]

Publicado originalmente por pete3great:

Publicado originalmente por CaimDark:

Speaking of wonky guides, I was checking the guide for nenio it says selective spell is great with the likes of pit and grease, but description specifically says it only works with AoE instantaneous spells. I test it with pit. and lo and behold, it actually works. Wtf? Was that an update? A bug? The description is wrong?

Working as intended, bug in the sense that the description isn't accurate. Now, the spell works that way on tabletop, where Owlcat copy and pasted the description from, but it was intentionally changed for the game. There are a lot of little things like that in the game. And absolutely, 100%, do not ever rely on the wiki. I've made that mistake myself.

As for OP, yeah. A lot of the builds you're going to find date back to alpha and don't work anything like they used to. Asking here for build ideas with specifics of what you're looking for is your best bet. Ignore anyone who tells you the only good builds need to rely on cheese to be unfair viable.

Using selective spell with pit spells and grease almost feels like cheating, maybe I'll stick to the description. Or not! I probably will lol. It just looks silly to calmly walk over those enemy sucking pits, and I like to keep things as lore and RP fiendly as possible. As for build ideas, I'm basically looking for single class builds that build on what the NPCs already started with in a reasonably effective way.

[CaimDark]

Publicado originalmente por Minneyar:

I mean, mathematically, Blink is overall a buff. You have a 20% chance of missing enemies, but they have a 50% chance of missing you. It's annoying when you miss, but on a character who's going to get attacked, especially a tank, it's statistically better than not having it.

I don't doubt it's better than not having, but there's a difference between that and recommending it over other potentially better spells. Plus, doesn't displacement already give the same 50% protection with no downsides?

[leyasu888]

Most of the build guides on youtube are still relatively optimal. The main things that got nerfed are AC stacking from 1 level dips like the natures whisper + scaled fist AC stacking "bug" and the shattered defense package nerf. Although shattered defense is still not bad and if your build has the feats to spare to add it into your build it might still be worth it.

But tbh most melee builds for pathfinder end up looking similar since there is like one optimal way to make a melee character. ie Outflank, improved crit, Pet trips, AoO spam.

[Chronocide]

Publicado originalmente por talemore:

There are spells who are only useful at their level and at certain enemies.

Yes, this exactly.

Example: Daze (cantrip) is a truly OP spell at level 1. Just completely over powered.

But at level 5 it's rarely useful and by level 20 it's entirely useless.

[CaimDark]

Publicado originalmente por leyasu888:

Most of the build guides on youtube are still relatively optimal. The main things that got nerfed are AC stacking from 1 level dips like the natures whisper + scaled fist AC stacking "bug" and the shattered defense package nerf. Although shattered defense is still not bad and if your build has the feats to spare to add it into your build it might still be worth it.

But tbh most melee builds for pathfinder end up looking similar since there is like one optimal way to make a melee character. ie Outflank, improved crit, Pet trips, AoO spam.

Thanks. What's the generally optimal melee build? And what's pet trips and AoO?

[CaimDark]

Publicado originalmente por Chronocide:

Publicado originalmente por talemore:

There are spells who are only useful at their level and at certain enemies.

Yes, this exactly.

Example: Daze (cantrip) is a truly OP spell at level 1. Just completely over powered.

But at level 5 it's rarely useful and by level 20 it's entirely useless.

Tbf, I don't think a level 0 infinite use cantrip being bad at level 5 and useless at 20 is a bad thing.

[Chronocide]

Publicado originalmente por CaimDark:

Publicado originalmente por Chronocide:

Yes, this exactly.

Example: Daze (cantrip) is a truly OP spell at level 1. Just completely over powered.

But at level 5 it's rarely useful and by level 20 it's entirely useless.

Tbf, I don't think a level 0 infinite use cantrip being bad at level 5 and useless at 20 is a bad thing.

it's not a problem.

But It's a prime example of what the other guy was talking about: that some spells are great at a given level and aren't particularly useful at other levels.

[Chronocide]

Publicado originalmente por CaimDark:

Publicado originalmente por leyasu888:

Most of the build guides on youtube are still relatively optimal. The main things that got nerfed are AC stacking from 1 level dips like the natures whisper + scaled fist AC stacking "bug" and the shattered defense package nerf. Although shattered defense is still not bad and if your build has the feats to spare to add it into your build it might still be worth it.

But tbh most melee builds for pathfinder end up looking similar since there is like one optimal way to make a melee character. ie Outflank, improved crit, Pet trips, AoO spam.

Thanks. What's the generally optimal melee build? And what's pet trips and AoO?

outflank is a teamwork feat for bonus damage when flanking the enemy

Various ways to make enemies trip via an animal companion.

Then there's a team work feat called something like tandem trip, which gives AoOs (attacks of oppertunity) to your allies when an enemy is tripped.

Attacks of oppertunity are free attacks you get between turns. By default you get 1 AoO. Combat reflexes increases that to your Dex modifier. And there's a mythic "ever ready" to further increase your AoO per round.

[Minneyar]

Publicado originalmente por CaimDark:

I don't doubt it's better than not having, but there's a difference between that and recommending it over other potentially better spells. Plus, doesn't displacement already give the same 50% protection with no downsides?

Displacement doesn't work against anything with True Seeing, and at higher levels, you can expect anything that is remotely challenging will have True Seeing. Blind Fighting also works against things with Displacement but doesn't work against Blink.

At really high levels you can put up Mind Blank to protect from True Seeing, but at that point you're also better off using Greater Invisibility rather than Displacement or Blink.

[leyasu888]

Publicado originalmente por CaimDark:

Publicado originalmente por leyasu888:

Most of the build guides on youtube are still relatively optimal. The main things that got nerfed are AC stacking from 1 level dips like the natures whisper + scaled fist AC stacking "bug" and the shattered defense package nerf. Although shattered defense is still not bad and if your build has the feats to spare to add it into your build it might still be worth it.

But tbh most melee builds for pathfinder end up looking similar since there is like one optimal way to make a melee character. ie Outflank, improved crit, Pet trips, AoO spam.

Thanks. What's the generally optimal melee build? And what's pet trips and AoO?

The feats you generally want on all melee builds would be combat reflexes, outflank, improved crit, lunge, power attack, the two weapon fighting chain(if you are not using a 2h reach weapon), improved initiative, weapon focus.

Dogs and Wolves have a bite attack which come with an inbuilt trip combat maneuver everytime the bite hits which makes them arguably the best pets in the game. AoO are attacks of opportunity. The idea is that the pets will trip the target and knock them down. A prone target in this game is super easy to hit cannot attack you and when the prone target gets up he will trigger an AoO for all enemies in melee range of him.

Outflank is a team work feat that gives all party members in melee range of a target an AoO when any party member crits a target. There is another team work feat called tandem trip which increases the chance to trip, and all your pets can have outflank as well. So effectively you just gangbang the enemy, knock them down with trip and watch the AoOs go brrrrr and powerful enemies just explode into little chunks. Bosses included.

[CaimDark]

Question: I typically have 3 frontliners. My paladin Anduin Lothar has the Leading Strike mythical ability. It says other allies with Leading strike do not deal additional damage to the marked target. Which I take to mean if everybody hitting the same target has this feat, it's basically wasted, right? So I only took it with my main character. But I'm wondering if it's right. Maybe 2 frontliners with it would be better, give me more procs possibly. Or the benefits might not be worth the feat? I don't know.

[Vertigo]

https://www.youtube.com/@MortismalGaming

This person has some good build advice, and I have found good results with some of his suggestions. He has also updated some classes to reflect recent patches.

Youtube will have lots of people class tiers, so they might be a good place to start if you want ideas still.

EDIT: Just remember opinions are subjective and that every opinion may not match up to your experiences. I strongly recommend using Midnight Isles to test how a build works (or IE to see how good it is endgame).