torn between arcanist, oracle or sorc for a lich playthrough, can you help me decide?

[Zunymitshu]

I don't know what I'm doing :(

[Bone Bag Pilot]

Do sorcerer and merge lich spellbook. Cant go wrong. Sylvan Sorcerer 20 if you want it easy.

[jsaving]

Lich eventually changes the stat that gives you a hit-point bonus from constitution to charisma, so you lose out on 100-200 hit points by endgame if you choose arcanist or wizard rather than sorcerer. Lich also can't merge its spellbook with divine classes so you lose out on caster level if you choose oracle rather than sorcerer.

If you're playing on normal difficulty level, you can win with anything so you should choose whatever you like best. But if looking to optimize your character then a charisma-based sorcerer would be the way to go. Sylvan's a great choice because of the pet, which can eventually become undead.

[MjKorz]

Arcanist (Phantasmal Mage) is best suited for an Illusionist Lich. This is the only way you're going to cast a persistent Weird as a Lich in order to eliminate the flat 10% chance of failure to kill that Weird has even with infinite spell DC. The downside of Arcanist is lack of bonus feats so you will end up with lower spell DCs compared to a Wizard.

Sorcerer (Seeker) is best suited for an Enchanter Lich. Pick Undead bloodline as your starting bloodline, then get the Arcane bloodline via the Second Bloodline mythic ability and once you reach level 15, choose Enchantment for School Power. Do not get the Fey bloodline, if you think hard enough you will understand why it's a trap: your goal is to scale the spell DC of non-Compulsion enchantment (Greater Command). Level Seeker to 15 total and Loremaster to 5, grabbing the Greater Command and Primal Regression spells. Get Best Jokes mythic ability as well, it's extremely powerful.

Oracle Lich is not even worth considering.

Another class I highly recommend for a Lich is Exploiter Wizard that makes the best Evoker Lich. The ability to increase CL by 2 via Potent Magic provides a powerful synergy with Dictum and Holy Word spells (that you can grab via Loremaster 5 levels along with an extra feat), allowing the Evoker Lich to clear screens of up to HD29 mobs with no total HD limit. The bonus feats Exploiter Wizard gets result in higher spell DCs relative to an Arcanist via Expanded Arsenal.

[Zunymitshu]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Arcanist (Phantasmal Mage) is best suited for an Illusionist Lich. This is the only way you're going to cast a persistent Weird as a Lich in order to eliminate the flat 10% chance of failure to kill that Weird has even with infinite spell DC. The downside of Arcanist is lack of bonus feats so you will end up with lower spell DCs compared to a Wizard.

Sorcerer (Seeker) is best suited for an Enchanter Lich. Pick Undead bloodline as your starting bloodline, then get the Arcane bloodline via the Second Bloodline mythic ability and once you reach level 15, choose Enchantment for School Power. Do not get the Fey bloodline, if you think hard enough you will understand why it's a trap: your goal is to scale the spell DC of non-Compulsion enchantment (Greater Command). Level Seeker to 15 total and Loremaster to 5, grabbing the Greater Command and Primal Regression spells. Get Best Jokes mythic ability as well, it's extremely powerful.

Oracle Lich is not even worth considering.

Another class I highly recommend for a Lich is Exploiter Wizard that makes the best Evoker Lich. The ability to increase CL by 2 via Potent Magic provides a powerful synergy with Dictum and Holy Word spells (that you can grab via Loremaster 5 levels along with an extra feat), allowing the Evoker Lich to clear screens of up to HD29 mobs with no total HD limit. The bonus feats Exploiter Wizard gets result in higher spell DCs relative to an Arcanist via Expanded Arsenal.

exploiter wizard looked sweet but having a companion wizard sorta turns me off from it.

[Uzkin]

In my opinion, if you choose to play as a merged-spellbook caster Lich then you want to play with the Lich toys - not with some common Illusion/Enchantment stuff that any caster could have. Therefore, I'd recommend a sorcerer (no archetype) with an arcane bloodline, with the aim of using the Lich-specific mythic spells and Necromancy spells.

You won't need any of the Spell Penetration feats so you can skip them. Just start with Conjuration (pick Spell Focus / Greater Spell Focus / Spell Focus Mythic / School Mastery / School Power (bloodline ability) in Conjuration along the way - but NOT in Necromancy!) and pick Expanded Arsenal: Necromancy at some point. Initially use Conjuration spells that ignore spell resistance (Grease, Glitterdust, ...), then move on to the Lich spells later on, once you have chosen the Lich path and picked up Expanded Arsenal: Necromancy.

A good race would be kindred-raised half-elf with initial CHA 22 (and all stat increases should naturally go to CHA, except the final odd point).

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

In my opinion, if you choose to play as a merged-spellbook caster Lich then you want to play with the Lich toys - not with some common Illusion/Enchantment stuff that any caster could have. Therefore, I'd recommend a sorcerer (no archetype) with an arcane bloodline, with the aim of using the Lich-specific mythic spells and Necromancy spells.

You won't need any of the Spell Penetration feats so you can skip them. Just start with Conjuration (pick Spell Focus / Greater Spell Focus / Spell Focus Mythic / School Mastery / School Power (bloodline ability) in Conjuration along the way - but NOT in Necromancy!) and pick Expanded Arsenal: Necromancy at some point. Initially use Conjuration spells that ignore spell resistance (Grease, Glitterdust, ...), then move on to the Lich spells later on, once you have chosen the Lich path and picked up Expanded Arsenal: Necromancy.

A good race would be kindred-raised half-elf with initial CHA 22 (and all stat increases should naturally go to CHA, except the final odd point).

Pure Necromancy specialist is painful to play, because the only AoE disabling spells you get are Fear and Banshee Blast that both force the affected enemies to run around like headless chickens, forcing you to chase them all over the place.

If you want to use Necromancy as a Lich, it's better to slap a second Expanded Arsenal for Necromancy on top of another school with actually good spells like Enchantment, Illusion, Evocation and Conjuration.

In fact, I'd even say that a Conjurer-Necromancer dual school specialist Lich is more thematic than a pure Necromancer, because both Domain of Hungry Flesh and Pit of Despair are Conjuration spells.

[Uzkin]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Pure Necromancy specialist is painful to play, because the only AoE disabling spells you get are Fear and Banshee Blast that both force the affected enemies to run around like headless chickens, forcing you to chase them all over the place.

If you want to use Necromancy as a Lich, it's better to slap a second Expanded Arsenal for Necromancy on top of another school with actually good spells like Enchantment, Illusion, Evocation and Conjuration.

I didn't use Fear or Banshee Blast almost at all during my sorcerer lich run. I was mostly blasting the enemies with high-level lich/necromancy damage spells. For CC I used stuff like Grease, Glitterdust, Web, Corrupted Blood, Waves of Exhaustion, Hungry Pit, and Domain of Hungry Flesh, modified with Selective metamagic as needed. Deadly Magic applied via AoE spells was also a very useful form of soft CC.

I didn't feel like I needed any more CC but of course it would be possible to add Expanded Arsenal: Enchantment or Illusion or Evocation in the mix. The build I described already uses Conjuration and has feats and abilities that boost it; Conjuration is needed for early game since my build does not use the spell penetration feats, and it nicely feeds into Necromancy later on via Expanded Arsenal: Necromancy.

Edit. It seems you missed the Conjuration part in my first post. What I was describing *is* a Conjurer-Necromancer.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

I didn't use Fear or Banshee Blast almost at all during my sorcerer lich run. I was mostly blasting the enemies with high-level lich/necromancy damage spells.

Then you didn't use the most powerful tools of an arcane spellcaster: AoE disabling spells that allow you to solve encounters extremely fast and economically - with just a single cast. Problem with Necromancy is that these tools come with a major annoyance attached to them - the need to chase enemies. Direct damage Necromancy spells are anemic in comparison.

Originally posted by Uzkin:

For CC I used stuff like Grease, Glitterdust, Web, Corrupted Blood, Waves of Exhaustion, Hungry Pit, and Domain of Hungry Flesh, modified with Selective metamagic as needed.

Stuff like Glitterdust and Waves of Exhaustion are debuffs, not as powerful as disabling spells. And if you use Conjuration spells from the start with spell focus, you cannot use them effectively in the later stages of the game due to lack of expanded arsenal.

Originally posted by Uzkin:

I didn't feel like I needed any more CC but of course it would be possible to add Expanded Arsenal: Enchantment or Illusion or Evocation in the mix. The build I described already uses Conjuration and has feats and abilities that boost it; Conjuration is needed for early game since my build does not use the spell penetration feats, and it nicely feeds into Necromancy later on via Expanded Arsenal: Necromancy.

Edit. It seems you missed the Conjuration part in my first post. What I was describing *is* a Conjurer-Necromancer.

If you use Conjuration early with spell focus, your mid- and lategame Conjuration spells will have bad DCs. I am very skeptical of your claim about "not needing any more CC" when you're not using Fear and Banshee Blast and the Conjuration spells you mentioned having bad spell DCs. With the character you described, you have no reliable AoE disabling spells starting from the midgame.

The character you described is not a Necromancer-Conjurer, because it is not a dual-school specialist with two expanded arsenals: one for each school. A Necromancer-Conjurer would have to play the early game through Illusion, Enchantment, Transmutation or Evocation early on due to not picking spell focus feats in Conjuration, but the payoff would be good spell DCs for both Necromancy and Conjuration in the mid-game and beyond.

[Uzkin]

As I said, I didn't face any problems whatsoever using my build. For example, Threshold felt like a breeze.

However, this was with pre-nerf Touch of Glory. Might be a different story these days, but it depends on the difficulty the OP intends to use.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

As I said, I didn't face any problems whatsoever using my build. For example, Threshold felt like a breeze.

However, this was with pre-nerf Touch of Glory. Might be a different story these days, but it depends on the difficulty the OP intends to use.

What difficulty did you play on? Your success rates of beating lategame mob saves as Lich (no inherent spell DC bonuses aside from the +2 unique cape) without expanded arsenal and touch of glory would be very bad even on Core difficulty unless you debuff the saves of every trash mob.

[Uzkin]

I was playing on Core.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

I was playing on Core.

Well, you had the touch of glory charisma bonus back then which is nonexistent now so I guess it made all the difference.

[fox5s]

Originally posted by I'm The Traitor:

exploiter wizard looked sweet but having a companion wizard sorta turns me off from it.

Don't let that put you off too much. Nenio is set more to go the Enchanter route that MjKorz outlined. The exploiter wizard is doing a totally different thing.

[titanopteryx]

I was looking at the mythic abilities of a lich and there were some melee ones. Is a melee lich viable?

[fox5s]

I understand that it used to be MORE viable than it currently is. But it still works. I've been using the Steam guide for "Olivia the mathematically correct Lich" as my starting point for a Melee Sorc Lich.