Spoiler: Can you play a neutral or good demon?

[Kuno]

I really like the idea of playing a chracter who relunctantly gives into those demonic powers to protect others. I also saw some evil choices in the Angel path and noticed that the Angel path also kind of branches into a more lawful and a more good one. So is there a NC path for the demon? Or even a good one?

[GrandMajora]

Originalmente postado por Princess Pilfer:

The 'the gods made me do it' thing for mortal races is BS and I hate it and I'm glad PF/DnD/Ect are finally killing it like they should have done 20 years ago.

I don't like the demons/angels/ect thing either, but it's *significantly* less stupid.

Why is it stupid? Intelligent design is not a theory in these games, it is a proven fact. The gods created races in their image for various reasons. And not all the gods believe that giving mortals free will was the right call. Asmodeus being one of the primary examples of this, as he considers free will to be the gods' greatest mistake.

The other evil aligned deities likewise do not make much sense as to why they would create races that have the potential to rebel against them, and become a hindrance to their greater schemes.

Gruumsh told his orcs to go forth and conquer specifically because the other gods joked about how the world had no place for them in it. They insulted his creations, and now Gruumsh commands them to take by force what was denied to them by right.

[Arcimbaldo]

Originalmente postado por phadin:

But demons, angels, azata, aeons, etc. Those are beings created from the planes. Their nature is intertwined to who and what they are. They can't be anything but that without, as people have said, divine intervention.

One of Arue's companion quests revolves around an Azata that supposedly has been seduced by her into becoming completely evil and debauched. There's no suggestion of divine intervention, and not even really any suggestion that it's unusual from what i remember.

[GrandMajora]

Originalmente postado por Arcimbaldo:

One of Arue's companion quests revolves around an Azata that supposedly has been seduced by her into becoming completely evil and debauched. There's no suggestion of divine intervention, and not even really any suggestion that it's unusual from what i remember.

Honestly, Arueshalae's story seems like she was written by some kind of fanfiction author. They even gave her the same gimmick as they did Jaethal in Kingmaker. That being she can not be permanently slain until all the other party members drop, because she's under Desna's protection.

Why the hell is Desna taking such a vested interest in the redemption of this one particular Succubus, when there are millions of them out there who she ignores? Or for that matter, why prioritize a DEMON over the mortals they prey upon?

As some of us have stated before, the outer planar beings do not simply uphold their alignments, they embody them. Changing a planar creature's alignment would result in changing their very identity as well.

When fiends stop being evil, they stop being fiends. When celestials stop being good, they either stop being celestials, or they become fallen.

There are no good demons, and there are no evil celestials, such creatures would be a contradiction of the planar cosmology.

[Arcimbaldo]

Originalmente postado por GrandMajora:

As some of us have stated before, the outer planar beings do not simply uphold their alignments, they embody them. Changing a planar creature's alignment would result in changing their very identity as well.

When fiends stop being evil, they stop being fiends. When celestials stop being good, they either stop being celestials, or they become fallen.

There are no good demons, and there are no evil celestials, such creatures would be a contradiction of the planar cosmology.

I don't know that it necessarily contradicts this. iirc the guy in the quest is basically treated as if he's become a demon for all intents and purposes. iirc there was some other dialogue in chapter 4 about an empyreal lord having formerly been something else

[GrandMajora]

Originalmente postado por Arcimbaldo:

I don't know that it necessarily contradicts this. iirc the guy in the quest is basically treated as if he's become a demon for all intents and purposes. iirc there was some other dialogue in chapter 4 about an empyreal lord having formerly been something else

He was the son of an Infernal Duke, which is Hell's equivalent to Demon Lords.

To become an Empyreal Lord, he worked his ass off to prove himself worthy of the celestials' approval. But his situation only confirms and proves my point. By renouncing the evil that spawned him, and actively fighting against it, he changed from being a Devil to being a Celestial.

[wolfgrimdark]

Lore is meant to lay the foundation and guidelines. It isn't meant to be a dictum on imagination. There are always exceptions and special cases.

There are fallen angels (Shamira comes to mind) and corrupt celestials, Good dragons that turned evil and back to good. There are demons that have been redeemed (Reformed Fiend is even a class) or manage to turn away from their demonic nature (there is one in Pathfinder, besides Arue, but it would be a major spoiler to say who). There are examples of this in both the game and the table top lore. Not to mention a DM can also create what they want. While it extremely rare in a world where magic and divine powers exist anything can happen.

I wouldn't let some lore preacher try to rain on your imagination simply because they can't see past their rule books. I DM'ed for years and while I always used the rule books and lore for the foundation and a strong guide I allowed for creative uses of imagination if it was well thought out and seemed plausible.

Now trying to embrace your demonic heritage and power ... while also trying to be good ... that would seem much more difficult as then you are trying to embrace chaotic evil at the same time.

It is more about a demon rejecting their heritage to become good, and consequently are no longer really a demon at that point. Likewise a fallen angel has become a demon and is no longer an angel. Or at least that is one way to look at it.

I think it is okay for an outsider to transform into something else but trying to change their alignment while also staying exactly as they are ... that seems like it the less plausible path. Still in a world filled with a multiverse of planes, powers both arcane and divine, and untold mysteries, anything is possible.

[GrandMajora]

Originalmente postado por wolfgrimdark:

There are fallen angels (Shamira comes to mind) and corrupt celestials, Good dragons that turned evil and back to good. There are demons that have been redeemed (Reformed Fiend is even a class) or manage to turn away from their demonic nature (there is one in Pathfinder, besides Arue, but it would be a major spoiler to say who). There are examples of this in both the game and the table top lore. Not to mention a DM can also create what they want. While it extremely rare in a world where magic and divine powers exist anything can happen.

Yes, but what you fail to understand about those situations is that the designated creature stopped existing as its previous form and became something else. Shamira did not remain a celestial after her fall, but instead transformed into a demon.

Likewise, that son of an infernal duke did not remain a devil after he defected to Heaven and became an empyreal lord. When Nocticula renounces her evil nature, she ceases to exist as a demon lord.

This is because, once again, the planar creatures do not choose to be their alignment. They are made from their alignment. They are its physical embodiment, mind, body and soul. If they deviated from that alignment, they would cease to exist in their current state and become something else entirely.

One of the main features of the planar cosmology is how only mortals from the material plane possess a degree of agency. They don't have set alignments, so they're free to act however they deem fit. Planar creatures like Celestials and Fiends are not so lucky, and can not exist as anything other than what the multiverse dictates for them. If they try to behave differently, then they transform into something else.

So no, you can not have a good demon. Because if they are good, then they wouldn't be a demon.

[Miskatonic]

The specifics are a bit hazy it seems, which I don't mind really, even in a system which is highly structured like alignment. The azata who fell has black pus on his hands which he says is because of his body rejecting his fall. Arueshalae doesn't seem to have any issues like that. The specifics of outsiders changing alignment doesn't seem to have hard fast rules.

[Skree]

Originalmente postado por GrandMajora:

Originalmente postado por wolfgrimdark:

There are fallen angels (Shamira comes to mind) and corrupt celestials, Good dragons that turned evil and back to good. There are demons that have been redeemed (Reformed Fiend is even a class) or manage to turn away from their demonic nature (there is one in Pathfinder, besides Arue, but it would be a major spoiler to say who). There are examples of this in both the game and the table top lore. Not to mention a DM can also create what they want. While it extremely rare in a world where magic and divine powers exist anything can happen.

Yes, but what you fail to understand about those situations is that the designated creature stopped existing as its previous form and became something else. Shamira did not remain a celestial after her fall, but instead transformed into a demon.

Likewise, that son of an infernal duke did not remain a devil after he defected to Heaven and became an empyreal lord. When Nocticula renounces her evil nature, she ceases to exist as a demon lord.

This is because, once again, the planar creatures do not choose to be their alignment. They are made from their alignment. They are its physical embodiment, mind, body and soul. If they deviated from that alignment, they would cease to exist in their current state and become something else entirely.

One of the main features of the planar cosmology is how only mortals from the material plane possess a degree of agency. They don't have set alignments, so they're free to act however they deem fit. Planar creatures like Celestials and Fiends are not so lucky, and can not exist as anything other than what the multiverse dictates for them. If they try to behave differently, then they transform into something else.

So no, you can not have a good demon. Because if they are good, then they wouldn't be a demon.

Uhm... Shamira still has angel wings, if i am not mistaken, and an angelic aspect however. Isn't it?

[Skree]

Nevermind, looked her in the manuals, she is a demon as a race. I cancel my objection :P

[Miskatonic]

If Shamira becomes a demon, why wouldn't a chaotic neutral Arueshalae become a protean?

[Skree]

Originalmente postado por Miskatonic:

If Shamira becomes a demon, why wouldn't a chaotic neutral Arueshalae become a protean?

My guess? "it's a game and they did not consider every single aspect or coherence of all and every options".

Continuity issues are common in any media, TV, books... and games.

[GrandMajora]

Originalmente postado por Miskatonic:

If Shamira becomes a demon, why wouldn't a chaotic neutral Arueshalae become a protean?

Souls who end up in the Maelstrom need to specifically ask the Proteans to transform them into one. You have to seek them out, not the other way around. Those who don't make such a request eventually transform into Chaos Beasts.

[ArchaicReaper]

Reformed Fiend is a Tiefling only Bloodrager subclass. So you could play a Demonspawn and have that be your rejection. Alternatively, you can start as a Demon and be Evil but then later in the game choose a different late game path Gold Dragon that has a heavy focus on Redemption. So you'd play the game evil for a while, maybe choosing some good here and there to struggle against your nature, and then fully redeem yourself later in the game.

[GrandMajora]

Originalmente postado por ArchaicReaper:

Reformed Fiend is a Tiefling only Bloodrager subclass. So you could play a Demonspawn and have that be your rejection. Alternatively, you can start as a Demon and be Evil but then later in the game choose a different late game path Gold Dragon that has a heavy focus on Redemption. So you'd play the game evil for a while, maybe choosing some good here and there to struggle against your nature, and then fully redeem yourself later in the game.

Tieflings are mortals, and thus possess free will. They may feel drawn towards evil, because of how everybody treats them, but they are not inherently bound to act upon it. Full fledged demons are different.