All casters doing nearly zero damage

[kernel]

So it's my first playthrough, now attacking Drezen. By this point my party was carried by melee and bow characters with +2/+3 weapon. Was lucky found a +3 bow for Lann, who is doing the most damage now.

All these casters, Ember, Soisel, Nenio, etc - their only purpose is utility: heal, buff, aoe debuff. That's it. Any direct spell is almost always a miss or doing nearly zero damage.

Playing at daring difficulty, auto-leveling these characters.
At Drezen things are tight: need to buff a lot of protections, now out of spell slots, cannot rest the party.

Is the game designed like that? I need to find special builds to be able to damage with casters?

[Razer]

Auto levelling on anything at normal or higher is generally a bad idea. Casters need more investment and specialization than martials. Especoally at higher difficulty. If you want them to do anything you're going to have to level them yourself and pick feats and spells that make them better.

If they miss then you're likely talking about ray attacks. Ray attack require a weapon attack roll to hit. Casters are low bab so you need to invest in them hitting stuff. Like point blank shot and precise shot. Ember gets these, but she has a -4 on rolls due to her blackened curse.

Use the right buffs, equipment and feat selection. Use the right spells for the school focus you're going for and you'll see better results.

[IlluminaZero]

Firstly if you want to spam damage spells as a kind of default attack then Witch archtype "keen-eyed adventurer" was basically designed with that in mind via making the cantrips much stronger.

If you really want to spam spells like an archer shoots arrows than either that class or... Kineticist... Would likely be best.

----- General rant about D&D style games in contrast to other games

The biggest culture shocks between D&D style P&P to things like MMORPG style games or Wizardry / Dragon Quest style games is likely:

1) In-battle healing tends to largely inefficient. (Many of those games tend to have this concept of Tank/Healer/DPS or simply have a battle of attrition with healing...)

2) Due to limited spell slots using spells for damage must be done selectively rather than treated as a default attack.

WOTR is particularly punishing for inefficient use of spellslots due to the corruption mechanic (IE in-map timers) and Demons further having spell resistance and elemental resistances... You could get away with it in older CRPGs like Baldur's Gate 2 due to how stupidly lenient in-dungeon resting was.

[Soul]

early acts if you wanna be casting spells for damage.... try snowball....

its a level 1 spell.... and if you pick metamagic feats you can use it for other spell levels too...

but its a conjuration spell... that has no spell resistance check... so all you need to do is hit their touch AC.... the only save is for a stun but damage is your main focus....

sure it caps at 5d6... but with metamagic it can go higher damage with it.... plus with draconic bloodline and if you managed to by the gloves in defenders heart you could add a +2 damage per die..... add bolster metamagic to the mix and you'd have +4 per die.... making its minimum damage 25...

[IlluminaZero]

Yep snowball is actually amazing. It also benefits from sneak attack damage making it particularly amazing for Woljif.

[Faust]

Here is a short passage from a previous post that can help to make a competent caster who will be able to cast a control spell that works:

Hi it depends on what type of caster you are talking about.

CC specialist, Damage dealer.
If he has a good dispel ability.
A high initiative.

One thing to consider also sorcerer or wizard.

sorcerers cast metamagic spells as a move action and cannot cast 2 or 3 metamagic spells per round.

We can't have everything generally we make a CC caster and a damage dealer separately to which we add a dispel ability and/or a high initiative.

The mythic path is also important and depends on the previous choices

For a max damage ray thrower I recommend to use : Helfire Ray (3x15D6 CL19)

If you are demon or aeon you can cast a spell at a time as a movement action.

So you do twice three rays at 15D6 (not counting equipment boosts, lineage etc) it goes much higher with all the bonuses +1 or +2 damage per dice and especially metamagic (Bolster / Empower / Maximize / Intensified).

Recommended Build:

ElementalSPecialist10/Loremaster9/CrossBloodedSorcerer1
ES10/Loremaster3/EK7
etc

Loremaster gives you access to Trickster critical feats early (bypasses all requirements) . Loremaster allows you to continue your spellcasting progression without reaching level 15 in Elemental Specialist. This is very important, because at level 15 Elemental Specialist's Focused Element stops performing conversion into pure fire and instead starts converting into fire + untyped - something we don't want, because untyped damage is not multiplied by flame curse.

Not to mention the metamagic with Bolster / Empower / Maximize / Intensified and all the shenanigans with the rods.

Since I've been playing again I feel like the touch CA has been boosted
Eldritch Knight are good To boost the Bab.

Super important to have spell penetration and a correct bab therefore a high dex.

Remember that you need to have 19 CL to optimize Helfireray so you can only lose 1 CL when multiclassing.

A shaman at least 2 levels for the fire curse on another character.

For a CC specialist :

Basic Wizard with Divination/Enchantment specialization for the save-reducing and CL-boosting aura(s) and Exploiter Wizard for Potent Magic are still the top picks.

Consider multi-classing:

Cross-blooded Sorcerer dip for the (Fey/Serpentine) + Undead bloodline arcanas in the case of an Enchanter and/or Illusionist to circumvent immunities.

Loremaster in the case of Enchanter, Evoker, Conjurer to obtain spells from the Cleric/Druid spellbook such as Greater Command etc.

Same complement on how to increase your DC and an overview of how to maximize the dispel (well we can still go further for the dispel but ...).

Personally, I only use it with abjuration since it is the way to increase your dispel capacity while allowing you to increase the DC of the other schools.

Like this

-Spell Focus (Abjuration)
-Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)
-Dispel focus
-Greater dispel focus
-Spell Specialization: Dispel/Greater Dispel )
-Ambuscading spell

To increase the DC of the spells, just take
-Mythic Spell Focus (Abjuration)
then Expanded arsenal in the other schools.

Dispel success = caster level + caster bonus(feats+ items)+ D20

(Expanded Arsenal taken) x 4 = +XX DC

Here is the impossible difficulty should be less complicated.
I did not specify but it will be necessary to invest in spell penetration (some mythic paths must invest a lot, others little like azata).

Additional classes useful to casters:
A witch and/or a shaman and a cleric can also help enormously thanks to:

Witch/shaman: their curses (to saves, to the AC)

The domains: same (preference for madness/luck/community, see law but specific case or to avoid the 1 or 20 to the dice of 20)

Another very IMPORTANT class for casters and even OBLIGATORY:
the COURT POET who boosts intelligence and charisma in the stratosphere and necessarily it helps to boost DC...

your spell DC will come from the Court Poet's Insightful Contemplation buff (boosted with Mythic Inspiration on the Court Poet character and boosted with Ring of Triumphant Advance on the caster character).

Conclusion:
best DC boost = Expanded arsenal X(1 to 4) + Court Poet

If you play without Court poet, you can compensate by adding the combinations mentioned above (Witch/shaman/Cleric).

Of course, taking all these classes will allow your casters to be overpowered
but this is not a good idea. It is necessary to have a balanced group and without strong melee or strong dps, it is nice to control everything but taking down the enemies will be a chore.

[Faust]

For more details on ray casters, see this discussion:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1184370/discussions/0/3830914892596309416/

[Minneyar]

As you've noticed, spellcasters are, in general, masters of crowd control, buffing, debuffing, and utility.

Direct, single-target damage is basically the only thing they're not the masters of, which is fine. It wouldn't do for them to be the best at everything, after all. Besides, who needs damage when you can use Acid Pit to completely remove a group of enemies from the fight or Chains of Light to completely neutralize the boss? Your spellcasters are most effectively utilized by using one or two powerful spells at the beginning of the fight to cripple the enemies than they are trying to put out consistent damage every round.

If you do want your spellcasters to be able to do high single-target damage, you need to focus their build on it. Take Point Blank Shot / Precise Shot so they can hit targets in melee; pick up metamagic rods of Bolster / Empower / Maximize / Quicken and use them regularly; take the Ascendant Element mythic ability for your favorite energy type; and of course, also take Spell Penetration / Greater Spell Penetration so you can get through SR. Then you can start loading up on the fun ray spells like Scorching Ray or Hellfire Ray or Polar Ray.

[Meza]

Hate to this game starts from what you describes. Here is two ways - make through save edit exp up to up your casters up to 20 lvls and understand amazing epicness of magic in WotR!!! Second one - long way, learn all this buff debuff things… they are also interesting and they are the keys for win, but toooooo complicated at beginning.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Meza:

Hate to this game starts from what you describes. Here is two ways - make through save edit exp up to up your casters up to 20 lvls and understand amazing epicness of magic in WotR!!! Second one - long way, learn all this buff debuff things… they are also interesting and they are the keys for win, but toooooo complicated at beginning.

Casters are gonna suck mostly until act 3 anyways. Getting spell DC up to hit stuff reliably and such is just not really possible early in the game. But act 3 and onward has some really nice gear that adds a lot. Tested an unfair build on Core in the market district and added 10 levels and still wasn't able to reliably cc things. It was very painful to watch.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Faust:

sorcerers cast metamagic spells as a move action and cannot cast 2 or 3 metamagic spells per round.

sorcerers CAN cast multiple metamagic spells though..... thanks to sorcerous reflex they get to cast a metamagic spell as a swift action and a normal metamagic spell in the same round....

your actions are limited to 5ft step.... a swift action (metamagic quicken can be used or sorcerous reflex feat).... and a move action (a regular metamagic spell can be used)....

as far as movement and casting goes.... I have my sorcerer near the front lines guarded by a meat shield wall.... so when combat usually starts my sorcerer is pretty much already within range and doesnt have to move much to join the fight.... my sorcerer is basicaly 5ft step behind Seelah my main tank... and other tanks are all in same range around my sorcerer...

[Deo]

Originally posted by Soul:

sorcerers CAN cast multiple metamagic spells though..... thanks to sorcerous reflex they get to cast a metamagic spell as a swift action

Only once per fight tho, and only if it's at least two levels lower than the maximum level of spells you can cast.

Sorcerer was sent even deeper into garbage pile with addition of Pearls of Power.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Deo:

Originally posted by Soul:

sorcerers CAN cast multiple metamagic spells though..... thanks to sorcerous reflex they get to cast a metamagic spell as a swift action

Only once per fight tho, and only if it's at least two levels lower than the maximum level of spells you can cast.

Sorcerer was sent even deeper into garbage pile with addition of Pearls of Power.

Since you can't queue actions in this game on RtwP the difference is hardly noticable. On Turn Based prepared casters win out. But it's not like they are a lot better. Most fights are over in 1-2 rounds anyway.

And the mask from Dance of Masks also allows swift action casting. So there's that.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by Deo:

Only once per fight tho, and only if it's at least two levels lower than the maximum level of spells you can cast.

Sorcerer was sent even deeper into garbage pile with addition of Pearls of Power.

Since you can't queue actions in this game on RtwP the difference is hardly noticable. On Turn Based prepared casters win out. But it's not like they are a lot better. Most fights are over in 1-2 rounds anyway.

And the mask from Dance of Masks also allows swift action casting. So there's that.

dance of masks doesnt do swift action casting.... its free action casting.... so 3 casts at start of battle.... and 2 casts for every round after that....

but add on the boots of arcane persistance.... and you can get a quicken spell every 4 casts of the same spell.... meaning Azata can ramp it up fast with their zippy magic...

[Razer]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by Razer:

Since you can't queue actions in this game on RtwP the difference is hardly noticable. On Turn Based prepared casters win out. But it's not like they are a lot better. Most fights are over in 1-2 rounds anyway.

And the mask from Dance of Masks also allows swift action casting. So there's that.

dance of masks doesnt do swift action casting.... its free action casting.... so 3 casts at start of battle.... and 2 casts for every round after that....

but add on the boots of arcane persistance.... and you can get a quicken spell every 4 casts of the same spell.... meaning Azata can ramp it up fast with their zippy magic...

Ah yea, it's free you're right.

Problem is getting there though. Like casters start becoming really strong in Act 4. During Act 1 and 2 they are basically a level 1 summon in terms of value in combat. It's so painful I can't play MC caster. The only one I managed to pull through is Crusader cleric with a focus on Enchantment and Illusion spells. Because it gets lots of melee goodies, so it's a decent combatant until spells come online. Which is late. Very very late. I mean the high level enchantment spells are good though. Although a lot of bosses are immune to stuff like weird or compulsion. So that sucks. But at least I can then melee them to death without worry.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by Soul:

dance of masks doesnt do swift action casting.... its free action casting.... so 3 casts at start of battle.... and 2 casts for every round after that....

but add on the boots of arcane persistance.... and you can get a quicken spell every 4 casts of the same spell.... meaning Azata can ramp it up fast with their zippy magic...

Ah yea, it's free you're right.

Problem is getting there though. Like casters start becoming really strong in Act 4. During Act 1 and 2 they are basically a level 1 summon in terms of value in combat. It's so painful I can't play MC caster. The only one I managed to pull through is Crusader cleric with a focus on Enchantment and Illusion spells. Because it gets lots of melee goodies, so it's a decent combatant until spells come online. Which is late. Very very late. I mean the high level enchantment spells are good though. Although a lot of bosses are immune to stuff like weird or compulsion. So that sucks. But at least I can then melee them to death without worry.

I dont feel as hampered with my main as a sorcerer.....

though it might be the way I build it.... taking point blank shot and precise shot by time I hit level 3.... and metamagic bolster and selective by time I hit level 5...

with a draconic bloodline and gloves of neophyte from tavern keeper in defenders heart....and point blank shot.... my cantrips already get a +2 for matching element of my dragonic bloodline... so its 1d3 + 3.... 4 to 6 damage soon as I reach the tavern basically....

of course selective grease is a massive control spell in those early Acts.... perfect for hunkering down for a fight... like tower of Estrod and the tavern defense...

Act 2 I get more creative a bit.... with invisibility and lightning bolt... use it to keep me out of sight and position myself just right to snipe enemies out of reach....