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Here's the issue that I was highlighting: Let's say the priests know the vision is 100% legit. They still had zero plan how to handle this. If they somehow went to Hulrun and got brushed off (considering all the other things he was dealing with), then it's a really bad look to break in to try and tamper with the stone. Even if they just went on a whim, they apparently got zero guidance from Desna on how to not make themselves look like cultists trying to wreck things. Their head priest also seems to not think this is that big of a deal, and I almost cannot blame Hulrun for being a total jerk to them. Considering how the Desnan head priest talks about Hulrun, he knew exactly how Hulrun acts (but chose to hold the idiot ball as his subordinates did something that would obviously provoke the man).
I get Iomade has this problem with not telling her people things (as the Hand of the Inheritor knows all too well). Desna is not doing herself any favors in this situation either.
But it goes back to my main point: a disciplined force like the hellknights are needed when the other options for good are well meaning but incompetent (ex: Desna priests). They may be cruel at times, but they tend to keep some of the stupid good members in check.
Not saying gods aren't extremely powerful within their own domains, but they're not completely omnipotent as they'd like people to think.
For all her blustering, Nocticula appears to be unable to actually stop the servants of Baphomet and Deskari from using realm as a revolving door to access to mortal realm. She flat out admits this to you, if you question her about why she wants to close the World Wound, explaining that it's existence is causing her more problems than it's worth.
Then there was the time that Baphomet just 'yoinked' the Ivory Labyrinth right out of Hell, despite the fact that Asmodeus himself declared it to be unsolvable. It only took the Lord of Beasts a mere 10 years to crack the puzzle and use it to become a new Demon Lord.
Also, if you're playing the True Aeon path, you can actually free the Rune Lord from his prison in the Ivory Labyrinth, without having to do the Ascension ending. Your power over the cosmic order is strong enough to break Baphomet's enchantments holding him prisoner there.
Not only that, but if you're playing a Devil, you can harness the infernal power of the labyrinth's construction and force it to reveal its secret treasures to you. A feat which enrages Baphomet, for obvious reasons.
There are only a few entities that could withstand her wrath in the dreams, and none of them are interested into picking a fight. None of them are demon lord either. They'd get squished.
You don't realize the power gap between Desna and a demon lord. Desna went and nuked a demon lord in his own domain, becasue she was angry.
Your other examples are all irrelevant. Asmodeus can't move against Baphomet now, because it could trigger an interplanar war. And unlike Desna, he is lawful not chaotic, so he won't do it.
He could do it. He is also an elder god like Desna, and just as powerful.
And if that wasn't enough, any priest, paladin and inquisitor have some spells to check for subterfuge. They are not complete idiot. In fact, they are 100% correct and Hulrun is wrong. The warning was genuine and the wardstone was failing.
This is not debatable at all. Desna priests were right and Hulrun was wrong. If he heard them, Kenabres might have been saved.
That's not a foolproof solution. Camellia even openly mocks this very warning mechanism, when one of the demons boasts about how they figured out a way to bypass it. Stating that they're far from the first person to have discovered such methods.
And Hulrun may be over zealous, but he's not exactly wrong in his assessments.
Ember burned at the stake for witchcraft? Oh, turns out that she's actually a witch.
Desnans accused of collaborating with demons? Oh, turns out their dream vision was delivered to them by an actual demon.
And not just any random kind of demon, but a species who's entire MO specializes in luring mortals into a false sense of security, before going in for the kill.
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But even with all that, Hulrun will eventually come to the realization completely on his own, that he was wrong to place blame upon the Desnans later on in the game. Unfortunately, most of the self righteous players seem to prefer just killing him on the spot, instead of giving him the opportunity to see the error of his ways.
The Desnans were right, Hulrun the child molesting fascist was wrong.
However the Desnans did break the law and should be tried for that. Cept Hulrun the idiot thinks it's better to just kill them instead of trying to find out the truth.
Defending Hulrun isn't a flattering trait...
Going by the description of Ember's backstory from the kickstarter campaign, her family came to Sarkoris during a time in which the people were not accustomed to interacting with elves.
Their lean frames, pointed ears and solid colored eyes made the people mistake them for demons. A misconception which doesn't seem too far fetched, seeing as how Ulbrig can't get it through his thick skull that not every supernatural creature we encounter is some kind of Fey!
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Ember being a child means absolutely nothing, when we know for a fact that demons have the power to disguise themselves as mortals. Hell, the entire reason why Hulrun is traumatized in the first place, is because Mendev allowed refugees in with open arms, not even bothering to vet them properly, only for Minagho to spring the trap and have the streets turn into a total bloodbath.
Hulrun's paranoia and prejudice may be extreme, but he has valid reasons for all of it.
The hell is that supposed to mean?
Do you think I'm under the impression that strange looking children are going to summon the hoards of Abyss upon my fair city when my back is turned?
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What I'm saying is that desperate times call for desperate measures. The accusations that we see Hulrun issue (Ember being witch, Desnans in league with demons) have turned out to be correct, if not quite in the way he initially thought.
His paranoia stems from a traumatic event in his past, which makes sympathizing with him perfectly reasonable.
It is made very clear, very quickly that the spread of demonic cultists runs deep and wide throughout Nerosyan. In fact, it's so wide spread, that I'd say being paranoid is the only rational response you can have in that situation.
By that reasoning, he should just kill everyone in case they might be demons and be done with it. There's a line between being careful and being a paranoid zealot, and Hulrun trampled all over it. In his case, the demons already won.
I am sorry, but your reasoning is terrible. Let's take a quick look at the past and current plot:
- Drezden fell because a demon tricked a mortal into believing they were doing the right thing with the Sword of Valoir.
- We see in the Ivory Sanctum many accounts bragging about how cultists infiltrated the forces of good and caused havoc.
- In game, we see how many sleeper cultists are in the city. We also see how some of them were former Eagle Watch members (the people that are supposed to be in control).
- We see how most of the game's succubi trick mortals, including one who makes a man rip his eyes out.
- In Wintersun, we see that the demons are impersonating... CHILDREN.
- It is also possible for our mythic powered KC (and their party) to get tricked by succubus abilities (despite all our buffs and whatnot).
- Arue, our redeemed succubus, is also an "espionage agent." Even though it's for our side, it makes you wonder if there aren't other demons with that same class.
For that reason, people come across as oblivious when they act like demons are not above impersonating children to infiltrate and destory. Hulrun himself admits that Kennabres used to be more welcoming until demons infiltrated as refugees and had a mass slaughter.
I get the man can be a blood knight, but the fact remains that given the world he is in, burning women and children is not entirely without merit. The game shows he was wrong with Ember, but it also does not show how often he was actually right. It goes without saying people wouldn't have a hanging judge rule their city if all he was doing was killing innocents.
And as for the Desnan priests: they behaved in a way cultists would (vision or not). If Hulrun had the time to search it out (and let them off without consequence), then you bet every cultist was going to masquerade as a priest of Desna who are doing things because a dream told them to. His response was extreme, but it was also heat of the moment.
If the world were more peaceful (like the one in KM), then I would agree Hulrun (and also the hellknights) were out of line and too extremist (and kill them without a second thought). When the whole world of WotR is "shape shifting demons and cloak and dagger cultists," I understand why more extreme methods are needed.
Also, once again, the MO of the Succubus is to lure mortals into a false sense of security.
They are SEX DEMONS, they are supposed to be seductive and charming!
Where as the Lilitu, on the other hand, are a species of demon who specialize in corrupting mortals to bring about their own damnation. They will find a victim (like Staunton) and stroke their ego. Telling them over and over about how great they are, and how the world doesn't appreciate their greatness. While the whole time, they are actually leading them down a path of self destruction.
And, of course, we have the Glabrezu, who are 18 foot tall crab monsters, born from the sin of betrayal. Read below, to see how they operate.
-----------------------------------------------
"Whereas the succubus is a demon that works her wiles by exploiting the physical lusts and needs of her prey, the glabrezu is a tempter of a different sort. Ferocious and bestial in form, the glabrezu is in fact a master of trickery and lies. With its ability to cloak its true form in pleasant illusions, the glabrezu uses its magic to grant wishes to mortal humanoids as a method of rewarding those who succumb to its guile and deceit. A wish granted by a glabrezu always fulfills the wisher’s need in the most destructive way possible—although such methods might not be immediately apparent. A struggling weaponsmith might wish for fame and skill at his craft, only to find that his best patron is a cruel and sadistic murderer who uses the weapons to further his destructive desires. A lonely man who wishes for a companion might have his wish granted in the form of a lost love returned to “life” as a vampire, and so on—the glabrezu is nothing if not creative in addressing a mortal’s desires.
A glabrezu stands 18 feet tall and weighs just over 6,000 pounds. These treacherous demons form from the souls of the treasonous, the false, and the subversive—souls of mortals who, in life, bore false witness or used treachery and deceit to ruin the lives of others."
I apologize, because I missed this line the first time around.
Where does it ever make even the slightest mention that Hulrun molests children?
--------------------
Also, on the subject of Ember being suspicious AF, keep in mind that she is going around trash talking THE GODS.
She is telling the masses of a highly religious country, who are currently engaged in a century long war with demons, that the gods are "silly" (that's ye olden speak for 'stupid'), and don't actually know how to help anybody. She says multiple times that there is no hope, and we're all going to die.
Yeah, I don't know about you, but openly trying to undermine faith in the gods, and telling people we're all doomed, kind of sounds like demonic behavior to me!
What do you all think?
I think there are several things:
1) Owlcat does a horrible job understanding what "Lawful" means. Regill aside, many of the lawful actions in this game border being judge, jury, and executioner. Of course, most of the 'lawful" characters are depicted unflattering.
2) People have some questionable reasoning abilities when they ignore the history of demonic infiltration coupled with all the known deceptions we see from demons in game. CONTEXT is important. In Kingmaker, you perform vivisection on a person to try and find out what is causing people to transform. An otherwise cruel act makes sense within the context of the story.
3) People act like Hulrun just grabs up everyone and murders them on the spot. What they seem to forget is at the start of the game, the first thing he does when he sees you is he attempts to heal you to the best of his ability.
He understandably has questions for the KC, but the game does not imply he is about to drag you off to torture or interrogate you. Terendelev asks him to not worry, and he lets the matter go.
The man is a jerk and does go to some extreme ends, but his situation has a bit more nuance than that.
Yup, you can also talk sense into him and get him to back down. You don't need to show him the holy sword to do so, it just makes it easier.
Anybody who thinks that just strolling up to Hulrun and swinging an axe into his face because you don't agree with him is a morally right and justified course of action, does not get to cry foul, when they see Hulrun doing the same thing to alleged cultists.
In a sense I do think there is something to be said for how the game has believably flawed characters. It is partly the accumulation of such flaws that lead to the Crusade being such a trainwreck at the start of the game after all.
Might be part of the reason why I like playing Gold Dragon actually. I mean Hulrun's past paranoia led to some horrific stuff and Galfrey will likely wrong a (good) aligned KC for far pettier reasons (and potentially cause many more tragedies via incompetence). But really it comes off as kind of pitiable more so than anything else down the line IMO.
It helps that they get their act together if you allow them the opportunity to. Maybe the abundance of such characters is partly what prompted the existence of Camellia? <<